Showing posts with label Arminianism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Arminianism. Show all posts

Saturday, May 18, 2013

John Wesley on Justifying Faith and Doctrinal Summaries (Part III)


Q. 7. What are the immediate fruits of justifying faith?
A. Peace, joy, love, power over all outward sin and power to keep down all inward sin. 

Q. 8. Does any one believe who has not the witness in himself or any longer than he sees, loves and obeys God?
A. We apprehend not: "seeing God" being the very essence of faith, love and obedience, the inseparable properties of it. 

Q. 9. What sins are consistent with justifying faith?
A. No wilful sin. If a believer wilfully sins, he hereby forfeits his pardon. Neither is it possible he should have justifying faith again without previously repenting. 

Q. 10. Must every believer come into a state of doubt or fear or darkness? Will he do so unless by ignorance or unfaithfulness? Does God otherwise withdraw himself?
A. It is certain a believer need never again come into condemnation. It seems he need not come into a state of doubt or fear or darkness, and that (ordinarily at least) he will not, unless by ignorance and unfaithfulness. Yet it is true that the first joy does seldom last long, that it is commonly followed by doubts and fears, and that God usually permits very great heaviness before any large manifestation of himself. 
--Nick

This is adapted and copied from John Wesley: A Library of Protestant Thought (pg138).

Wednesday, May 8, 2013

John Wesley on Justification and Doctrinal Summaries (Part I)

The First Annual Conference. Monday, June 25, 1744.

There were several souls in participation. Charles Wesley, John Hodges, Henry Piers, Samuel Tayor, John Meriton and John Wesley. The design of their meeting was proposed as such:
1. What to teach;
2. How to teach; and
3. What to do i.e. how to regulate our doctrine, discipline and practice.
The sequence of this is in a question and answer format. It took place about seven o'clock.
Q. 1. What is it to be justified?
A. To be pardoned and received into God's favor and into such a state that, if we continue therein, we shall be finally saved.

Q. 2. Is faith the condition of justification?
A. Yes, for everyone who believeth not is condemned and everyone who believes is justified. 

Q. 3. But must not repentance and works meet for repentance go before faith?
A. Without doubt, if by repentance you mean conviction of sin, and by works meet for repentance, obeying God as far as we can, forgiving our brother, leaving off from evil, doing good and using his ordinances according to the power we have received.
I may make this a miniseries. There are a lot of questions asked. Also, if his answers are terse, these are meant as summations, not essays.

--Nick

This is adapted and copied from John Wesley: A Library of Protestant Thought (pgs136-7).

Thursday, December 27, 2012

A Change in Heart over the Calvinism/ Arminianism Debate

Marius:
I wasn’t aware of the depth of theology behind it, nor was I aware that its opponent(s) had a term(s) to be identified with (Arminianism in this case which is a form of Synergism, but other forms of Synergism existed prior to Arminianism, e.g. Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism, which hold that individuals co-operate with God in their salvation, though each of these systems define cooperation differently), nor did I research it – I simply rejected it because it defied all common sense. With my limited knowledge of Calvinism, which was basically making it synonymous with predestination, I took my stand against it. I believed then, and still do, that God seeks a true relationship with his creation rather than an arbitrary one.
My good friend Marius wrote this and I found it compelling. The personal aspect of these conversations and debates is sorely needed. As someone who was stuck in the very center of the debate at Biola, it is quite profound to see the almost siesmic shift one experiences when they change their mind. In either direction.

For the rest of Marius' post, enjoy it here. Check out his blog!

--Nick

Wednesday, December 12, 2012

Arminius on Election

Arminius:
In the second place, you assert, that “divine Election is rule of giving or withholding faith. Therefore Election does not pertain to believers, but faith rather pertains to the elect, or is from the gift of Election.” You will allow me to deny this, and to ask for the proof, while I plead the cause of those, whose sentiment you here oppose. Election is made in Christ. But no one is in Christ, except he is a believer. Therefore no one is elected in Christ, unless he is a believer. The passage in Romans xi, 5, does not serve to prove that thesis. For the point, there discussed, is not the election of grace, according to which faith is given to some, but that, according to which, righteousness is imputed to believers. This may be most easily, proved from the context, and will be manifest to any one, who will more diligently inspect and examine it. For the people, “which God foreknew, (verse 2d,) that is which He foreknew according to His grace, is the people, which believed, not that which followed after righteousness by the works of the law (Rom. ix, 31). This people God “hath not cast away.” For thus is to be understood the fifth verse, “there is a remnant according to the election of grace,” that is, they, only, are to be esteemed as the remnant of the people of God, who believe in Christ, as they alone are embraced in the election of grace, the children of the flesh, who followed after righteousness by the law, being excluded. That, which follows, teaches the same thing, “if by grace, then it is no more of works.” What is that which is “by grace “? Is it election to faith? By no means; but it is election to righteousness, or righteousness itself. For it is said to be “by grace” not “by works.” For it is not, here, inquired whether faith, but whether righteousness belongs to any one by works. Consider also the next verse “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained, and the rest were blinded.” What is that which Israel had sought for, and had not obtained? Not faith, but righteousness. See the end of the 9th and the beginning of the 10th chapters. They rejected faith in Christ, and endeavoured to obtain righteousness, by the works of the law, and this is the reason that they did not attain “to the law of righteousness.” It is the same thing, also, which the elect are said to have obtained, not faith, but righteousness.
 Much thanks to Arminian Today for this. Much to ponder and chew on.

--Nick

Wednesday, August 29, 2012

An Arminian Interpretation of Romans 9-11

 I'm just now really studying the infamous Romans 9-11. Came across this.

SoEA:
Dr. Picirilli regards Romans 9:14 as the key to the passage. Romans 9:14 says, “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!” (NKJV). Paul’s point in Romans 9-11 is to show that the answer is no! God has not failed in His promises to Israel nor is He unjust in rejecting Israel because of their lack of faith.
So Paul’s main point: God is not unrighteous in His present rejection of Israel.
Sub-points in developing this main point:
  1. God elects and rejects whom He pleases (Romans 9-10)
    1. He never promised, unconditionally, to save all the fleshly descendants of Abraham, Isaac, or Israel (9:6-13).
    2. He is Sovereign and has the right to save (or damn) whomever He pleases (9:15-24).
    3. He always made clear (in prophecy) that not all of “Israel” would be saved (9:25-29).
    4. He has rejected Israel because Israel has rejected salvation by faith in favor of salvation by works (9:30-10:21).
  2. God has not rejected Israel after all (Romans 11)
    1. In fact, God has not rejected Israelites: any who will can be saved by grace through faith (11:1-10).
    2. The present rejection of Israel opens the door of salvation for all nations (11:11-22).
    3. Indeed, the present rejection of Israel is not “final”: Israel will yet be converted (11:23-32).
One point that Dr. Picirilli makes that I found comforting was that God desires to show mercy (Romans 9:18). If we can show that His mercy is extended on the basis of faith in His Son then we can likewise conclude that His damnation is based on the rejection of His mercy. It would follow that if Paul is establishing conditional salvation upon faith in Jesus (Romans 10:13) then he would not conclude that God would predestine the reprobate. His desire is to show His grace and mercy to all (Romans 11:32; 2 Peter 3:9) and to save all who come to Him in faith (John 6:37; Acts 13:38-39; 1 Timothy 2:3-6).
 For the link, enjoy HERE.

--Nick

Sunday, June 24, 2012

"Free Will in Heaven?"

Richard Coords:
Due to the contradictory and confusing nature of Calvinism, Calvinists often struggle to articulate their own arguments. So Arminians with whom they are in dialogue, are often found having to first unscramble their own logic puzzles, in order to provide an answer. 

One such Calvinist logic puzzle is the following: "In Heaven, we will not be able to sin, and yet we will be free, which proves the doctrine of Compatibilism, in that God can irresistibly determine our actions, while yet we remain free in what we choose."

As a response to what kind of free will that we will possess in Heaven, I personally think that we will have a full, free range of libertarian free will in Heaven, but that there is an added dynamic that is overlooked, because our sin nature is the only nature that we presently know. And so we perceive a future through that lens alone. 
For the rest, click HERE.

--Nick

Saturday, June 23, 2012

Olson's Respond to Fischer's "Calvinism"

Olson:
I do agree with much of what Austin wrote. In fact, I agree with the substance of it. I think a lot of critics of his post entirely missed his concluding remarks (criticisms) about “moderate” preaching–that it is sometimes too weak and lacking confidence in its own gospel message.

I have a one frame cartoon from (I think) Leadership magazine (years ago) showing a bespectacled minister sitting at his church office desk. Behind him is an attendance chart showing Sunday attendance at his church declining steeply. Across from his desk sits someone (a deacon?) saying “Well, pastor, maybe it would help if you didn’t end every sermon with ‘But then, what do I  know’?”
But another one shows a church custodian cleaning up around the pulpit on a Monday and seeing a post-it note in the pastor’s handwriting on the pulpit saying “Weak point, pound pulpit here.”
Austin rightly called for the current crop of “neo-Calvinist” preachers to preach with less certainty and authority (because what they are preaching is often opinion) and moderates to preach with more assurance and confidence (of the gospel).

I will stop speaking for Austin (and ask him to correct me if I got him wrong) and add my own commentary on the subject.

Yes, as some commenters here have rightly pointed out, Arminian preachers can also preach with over-reaching certainty that leaves no room for disagreement or doubt (that is, calling into question a person’s spirituality if not salvation for disagreeing or doubting). That’s just not currently as much of a problem with college students (especially) who are flocking to student conferences attended by upwards of twenty-to-thirty thousand students who hear neo-Calvinist (or whatever they should be called) preachers proclaim Calvinism as if it were the gospel itself and saying things like “If you received Jesus Christ for any other reason than the glory of God you might not be saved” and “Godordained sin” and “Christ died for God and not for you” and “If a dirty bomb fell on a city it would be from God,” etc., etc. (These are statements students returning from these conference and ones like them have reported hearing.)
For the rest, click HERE.

--Nick

Tuesday, June 19, 2012

Southern Baptists & Semi-Pelagianism?

Christianity Today:
A statement by a non-Calvinist faction of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has launched infighting within the nation's largest Protestant denomination, and tensions are expected to escalate Tuesday as church leaders descend on New Orleans.

While the election of the denomination's first African American president in its 167-year history will dominate the meeting's headlines, water-cooler talk is sure to be fixated on a theological dirty word that, for the past two weeks, has spiked the blood pressure of theologians as much as it has Baptist visits to Wikipedia.

The May 30 document, "A Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation," aims "to more carefully express what is generally believed by Southern Baptists about salvation." But both Southern Baptist Theological Seminary president Albert Mohler and George W. Truett Theological Seminary professor Roger Olson, in separate blog posts, said that parts of the document sound like semi-Pelagianism, a traditionally heretical understanding of Christian salvation.
Groovy, another thing to make some headlines. 

For the rest, click HERE. 

--Nick

Wednesday, June 13, 2012

Roger Olson, "Heresy, Heretics & Semi-Pelagianism"

Olson:
The recent “dust up” over possible semi-Pelagianism among certain Baptists has given rise to the usual confusion about terms like “heresy” and “heretic.” So let’s clear things up a little (hopefully).

What makes a belief “heresy?” Well, there’s no easy answer to that unless it is within a church or denomination that has a formal magisterium. Such as the Roman Catholic Church. Some beliefs have been formally “anathematized” by a council or a pope. Then they are heresies. Somewhere, several times over the centuries, what we have been calling “semi-Pelagianism” here has been declared heresy by that Church. Some Protestant churches have also declared it heresy. Not all. If a belief has been formally declared anathema or heresy by a church magisterium, then, within that church or denomination it is heresy–there. Whether it is heresy outside that church or denomination is a difficult question. For example, what sense would it make to say that a Buddhist is teaching the “Nestorian heresy?” However, a Catholic, for example, might say that a certain Protestant is teaching that heresy. But “heresy” has somewhat different meanings even there–inside and outside that church.

Many “free churches” have no magisterium or even formal, written statement of faith. For example, the American Baptist Churches, U.S.A. is a denomination without a magisterium or formal, written statement of faith that could be used as an instrument of doctrinal accountability. So “heresy” is a very problematic concept there. Still, an ABCUSA leader or theologians might say that a person within the denomination is teaching heresy. That’s meaningless unless they explain what they mean by “heresy.” Usually in such a context it means a belief believed to be seriously contrary to the gospel or Baptist practice. For example, a conservative ABCUSA person might say “Such-and-such a pastor is teaching the heresy of universalism.”  But since there’s no agreed on list of heresies in that denomination, the person using the term can only mean ‘I think that pastor is teaching a doctrine contrary to the gospel” or to Baptist practice. In other words, in that context, “heresy” has no teeth other than the damage that might be done to a person’s reputation.
For the rest, click HERE.

--Nick

Tuesday, May 8, 2012

A Casual Chat between Arminians and Calvinists, the beginning


My lovely lady is hosting a convo at her blog about this very topic. I think it has the makings of a great beginning dialogue.
Marius: We can be incredibly intellectual about this, but what Calvinism came down to, essentially (in my view at least) is that nobody can earn salvation. numerous debates followed and the concept of not earning salvation went a step further, even to say that you can’t “choose” God, because that implies something you did to earn your salvation (something to boast about) the obvious proof-text for this is lost on me now, but it boils down to that God must first rear you or something before you can come close to God (the ability to live for God).
from there the whole thing evolved further… and this is where Arminius developed the 5 points of the remonstrance, one of which was to say that grace is resistible.
that is a pretty touchy subject, resistible grace vs irresistible grace. as humans, we love the idea that we can choose… and to a great extent we can, we do have this “illusion” that we can choose, because we experience it every day. so it’s hard for us to say we can’t choose, it doesn’t follow naturally.
Matthew: Marius, surely we can choose things, right? I would also take issue with saying that Calvinism just means that nobody can earn salvation; every orthodox Christian believes that.
Allison: “from there the whole thing evolved further… and this is where Arminius developed the 5 points of the remonstrance, one of which was to say that grace is resistible.”
If I am recalling what I read correctly, he conceived of himself as a “Calvinist”, but believed he was making corrections to the system he was in. Maybe somewhat like Luther thought he would make some corrections to his existing system by bringing it up for discussion—not exactly start a completely new system.
Also, I believe the crux was God’s character and this is where the free will discussion entered for him—not just the inability to come to terms with his lack of choice.
Question (anyone): I was under the impression that Calvinists on the whole believe in free will, but as they define it.
It has just begun. For the rest, Allison Quient.

--Nick

Monday, April 23, 2012

C. Michael Patton, "Why Arminianism Doesn't Sell"

I thought this was quite interesting. 
I made an observation recently that may be completely off base, or it may just betray the reality of the tight Evangelical circles in which I travel most of the time. Either way, here it is:

Calvinists have a corner on theologically-themed conferences. Arminians have apologetically-themed conferences. Leadership conferences don’t do theology.


Is this true? It seems true from my standpoint. Think about the major conferences out therethat are theological in nature: Desiring God, Together for the Gospel, The Gospel Coalition, and Ligonier Ministries. All of them fill churches and arenas with thousands of people. Passion fills the air as speakers talk about theological issues in the church. John Piper, Don Carson, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Albert Mohler, Tim Keller, and the like are invited to speak. Diversity runs deep in these theology conferences. Dispensationalist and Covenant Theologians, paedobaptists and credo baptists, charismatics and non-charismatics, and premillenialists and amillenialists are all represented. However, it is hard to find an Arminian invited to (much less putting together) such engagements. Why? I don’t know, but I suspect that it is because Arminianism, as a theological distinctive, just does not preach. Don’t get me wrong. I did not say that Arminians can’t preach. They most certainly can. And I did not say that Arminianism is not true (This is not the question on the table). It is simply that the distinctives of Arminianism do not sell in such settings. Evangelicals love to hear about the sovereignty of God, the glory of God in suffering, the security of God’s grace, the providence of God over missions, and yes, even the utter depravity of man. This stuff preaches. This stuff sells tickets.

For the Arminian to put together a distinctive conference, things would be a bit less provocative. Things like “The Responsibility of Man in Suffering,” “Man’s Role in Salvation,” or “The Insecurity of Salvation” won’t preach too well. Think about how hard it is for a Calvinist to try to plug in a token Arminian at a general theology conference. On what subject do you let them speak? “Roger Olson, I would like you to come to our conference and speak on . . . (papers ruffling) . . . ummm . . . (papers ruffling more) . . . Do you do anything in apologetics (except suffering)?”

Of course, there was the John 3:16 conference, which was Arminian. But that was not a general theology conference. It was a specific conference which amounted to a polemic against Calvinism. During the conference, the speakers simply countered all five points of Calvinism. This is symptomatic of so much of the Arminian distinctives with regard to their message. Much of the time Arminianism is simply seen as “Against Calvinism,” whereas Calvinism is more affirmatively focused on the sovereignty of God. Even the latest books published on the subject betray such a reality: For Calvinism by Michael Horton and Against Calvinism by Roger Olson. I think one can find this same general approach in the theological blogosphere. Calvinists have something they are for, while Arminians are always on the defensive, fighting what they are against. Finally, as far as I know, the John 3:16 conference only happened once (in 2008). That it, or anything like it, has not been renewed or rebooted may serve to prove my observation.

Now, apologetics seems to be a different story. Not only to do you have Arminians filling the pulpit when it comes to defending the faith, they seem to dominate. William Lane Craig, J.P. Moreland, Paul Copan, Norman Geisler, and Gary Habermas are all on the roster. It is “Team Biola.” This is not to say that Calvinists don’t do apologetics. However, they normally do so in a less “evidentialist” style that just won’t teach. Have you ever tried to teach people to defend the faith using presuppositional and transcendental arguments? Enough said. The simple observation I am making is that apologetics is heavily dominated by Arminians today. However, I don’t think there is anything distinctive about Arminianism which would make them more equipped to hold apologetics conferences. Perhaps, the focus on the free will of man makes the whole apologetics enterprise more necessary and effective in Arminianism. Theoretically, Calvinists, because of their compatibleness (holding the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man in tension), could teach evidentiary apologetics just as truly as an Arminian. ”Did Christ Rise from the Grave?”, “Who is Jesus?”, “Is God a Moral Monster?”, or “Responding to the New Atheists” are all topics on which Calvinists and Arminians could teach together without sacrificing their theological integrity. There may be some distinction with a topic such as “If God is Real, Why is There Evil?” But that is the only apologetic issue which I think could be an exception in this group of topics.

Leadership conferences, on the other hand, are normally very diverse. Why? In all probability, they are not very theological in nature. Stirring passion about finishing strong, leading by serving, and preparing a sermon does not require any theological commitment one way or another. However, if the leadership conference turns on men’s issues or women’s issues, the complementarian/egalitarian elephant enters the room. And, generally speaking, most complementarians are Calvinist and most egalitarians are Arminian.

That said, these observations are not timeless. They are what I see today. I think they represent the chicken or the egg question (I don’t know which comes first) to the resurgence of Calvinism in the pews today. My hypothesis is that Calvinism preaches better than Arminianism. In a confused world of suffering and pain, we want to know that God has it under control, not man. Calvinism instigates more of a dramatic change in theology than does Arminianism. We are more naturally inclined toward the Arminian idea of free will and God’s sovereignty. People normally don’t “become” Arminians. But nearly all Calvinists can tell of a passionate “conversion” experience as to how Calvinism dramatically changed their way of thinking about God. This creates incredible passion. Therefore, we invite Calvinists only to these theology conferences (even when the organization, itself, claims to be more broadly Evangelical). And people leave with a full heart. On the other hand, when we want to fight against the New Atheists, we do not need to discriminate against the finer points of theology too much. Therefore, we invite either Arminian or Calvinist apologists.



--Nick

Thursday, April 12, 2012

George MacDonald, "The God Revealed in Jesus Christ"

This article was offered for free by author Thomas Talbott on his website. It is from the anthology "All Shall be Well; Explorations in Universal Salvation and Theology, From Origen to Moltmann," edited by Robin Parry (or Gregory MacDonald, as he was known).





This post will cover pages nine through thirteen, and continue in the essay written by Thomas Talbott on my favorite deceased theologian, George MacDonald.

Universal Salvation in the Theology of George MacDonald (1824-1905) by Thomas Talbott

Now if, according to MacDonald, Jesus Christ is the very revelation of God to us, just what is the nature of the God he reveals? In a sermon entitled “The Creation in Christ,” MacDonald asked: “Now what is the deepest in God?”27 That is, what is the most basic attribute of divinity, the one that explains God‘s most basic reasons for acting? It could not be his power because having the power to do something could never, by itself, provide a reason to do it. Neither does having the power to do something exclude the possibility of doing it for a selfish or even for a demonic reason. So, because Jesus himself described God as our “Father in heaven,” because his entire message, as MacDonald understood it, was one of love and forgiveness, and because I John 4:8 & 16 declares twice that God not only loves but is love, MacDonald likewise wrote: “In one word, God is Love. Love is the deepest depth, the essence of his nature, at the root of all his being. . . . His perfection is his love. All his divine rights rest upon his love.”28 But if it is indeed God‘s nature to love, how then should we understand his holiness and justice? Are not these also attributes of God? People sometimes say, as if it were an illuminating remark, that God is not only loving and merciful, but also just; they then exhort us to take into account God‘s justice, as well as his love, and to avoid an overly sentimental understanding of his love. According to MacDonald, however, God‘s justice is itself an expression of his love and, beyond that, his justice and mercy are exactly the same attribute. Nor was MacDonald‘s understanding of God‘s perfecting love, which a sinner might sometimes experience as wrath, harsh judgment, or even a temporary hardening of a heart, even remotely sentimental.
“I believe that justice and mercy are simply one and the same thing; without justice to the full there can be no mercy, and without mercy to the full there can be no justice; that such is the mercy of God that he will hold his children in the consuming fire of his distance until they pay the uttermost farthing, until they drop the purse of selfishness with all the dross that is in it, and rush home to the Father and the Son, and the many brethrenrush inside the centre of the life-giving fire whose outer circles burn. I believe that no hell will be lacking which would help the just mercy of God to redeem his children.”29
So God is not, in other words, a split personality whose justice pushes him in one direction and whose mercy pushes him in another. In order to illustrate the point, MacDonald chose, as a text for his sermon entitled “Justice,” the King James translation of Psalm 62:12: “Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work.” He then pointed out that, given the prevailing Calvinist theology of his day, one would have expected this text to read very differently, something like: “Also unto thee, O Lord, belongs justice; for thou renders to everyone according to his or her work.” But if MacDonald was right about justice and mercy (and the Calvinists of his day were mistaken), then it matters not which term one might choose. For the two resulting statements are, if not synonymous, at least logically equivalent, and so both are true if either one is true.30 MacDonald might also have pointed to a text such as Isaiah 30:18, according to which God‘s mercy expresses his justice: “Therefore the Lord wants to be gracious to you; . . . he will rise up and show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice.” Or he might have pointed to the eleventh chapter of Romans, which explicitly teaches that God‘s severity towards the disobedient, his judgment of sin, and even his temporary hardening of a heart all express his boundless mercy. The point is that, according to explicit teachings in the Bible, God‘s justice and mercy both require exactly the same thing, namely, an absolute destruction of sin and the separation of every sinner from it.

This single move, that of affirming an identity between divine justice and divine mercy, strikes at the very heart of Calvinism as a system of theology. Many Christians who might reject MacDonald‘s universalism—Arminians, Roman Catholics, and other freewill theists—can nonetheless accept such an identity, but a Calvinist cannot. You cannot consistently affirm a doctrine of limited election (much less that of limited atonement) unless you suppose that God deals “justly” with some people—namely, the non-elect—without being merciful to them. In defense of limited atonement, therefore, the Calvinist philosopher Paul Helm has argued that mercy differs from justice in just this respect: By its very nature mercy must be supererogatory, an expression of undeserved love, and hence cannot rest upon a moral necessity of any kind. “What is essential to such [undeserved] love is it could, consistently with all else that God is, be withheld by him. If God cannot but exercise mercy as he cannot but exercise justice then its character as mercy vanishes. If God has to exercise mercy as he has to exercise justice then such ‘mercy‘ would not be mercy [i.e. would not be undeserved love]. . . . A justice that could be unilaterally waved would not be justice, and a mercy which could not be unilaterally waved would not be mercy.”31

Now the first thing to observe about such an argument is that it is not a biblical argument at all; that is, it does not rest upon the interpretation of some biblical text or combination of texts. It is instead a quasi-philosophical argument of a kind that MacDonald encountered repeatedly and always rejected on the ground that it rests upon an utterly pagan understanding of justice and mercy.32 The easiest response would be to make Helm a present of the word “mercy” and then simply to replace it with any one of the following: “beneficence,” “kindness,” “compassion,” or even “pity.” One could then note the absurdity of the following claim: “If, given his essential attributes, God cannot but exercise beneficence [kindness, compassion, or pity] as he cannot but exercise justice, then its character as beneficence vanishes.” And, finally, one could point out that Romans 11 culminates in the statement: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful [or beneficent] to all.”33 As I have suggested elsewhere, the basic Pauline concept here, typically “translated in our English Bibles with the word ‘mercy,‘ is not that of undeserved love at all. It is instead that of beneficence, kindness, compassion, or pity. It has in view not the setting aside of a just punishment, as Helm supposes, but the relief of misery or distress.”34 In fact, MacDonald himself rejected as absurd the whole idea of God withholding a deserved punishment from someone. For if divine justice and mercy are the very same attribute, then God withholds a deserved punishment only if he withholds his mercy as well.

Behind the widespread idea that God‘s mercy is supererogatory lies the more general absurdity that, even as our Creator, God owes us nothing in our so-called fallen state; in particular, he has no obligation (no responsibility grounded in necessity) to save sinners. But MacDonald rejected that view as patently absurd. For just as the decision to have children entails an obligation to care and to provide for them, however disobedient they may become, so God‘s decision to create us entailed a freely accepted obligation to meet our true spiritual needs. MacDonald thus exclaimed:
Away with the thought that God could have been a perfect, an adorable creator, doing anything less than he has done for his children! . . . The idea that God would be God all the same, as glorious as he needed to be, had he not taken upon himself the divine toil of bringing home his wandered children, had he done nothing to seek and save the lost, is false as hell. Lying for God could go no farther. As if the idea of God admitted of his being less than he is, less than perfect, less than all-inall, less than Jesus Christ! less than Love absolute, less than entire unselfishness! . . . It will be answered that we have fallen, and God is thereby freed from any obligation, if any ever were. It is but another lie. No amount of wrongdoing in a child can ever free a parent from the divine necessity of doing all he can to deliver his child.35
So here, once again, we see how MacDonald‘s vision of God‘s all-pervasive love so inflamed his imagination that he found much of the Western theological tradition, insofar as it departs from a consistent expression of it, deeply offensive.

--Nick

Footnotes:
27 “The Creation in Christ.”  In Unspoken Sermons, 420.
28 Ibid., 421.
29 “Justice.” In Unspoken Sermons , 535.
30 Two statements need not be synonymous in order to be logically equivalent. For example, “The triangle on the board is equilateral” and “The triangle on the board is equiangular” are not synonymous statements. But they are logically equivalent. It is necessarily true that both are true if either one is true.
31 Helm, “The Logic of Limited Atonement,” 50.
32 There are in fact powerful exegetical arguments in support of MacDonald‘ s contention here. For an exceptionally careful study of how the translation of the Hebrew Bible into the Septuagint and the subsequent translation of the Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate distorted the Hebrew understanding of justice and drove an unwarranted wedge between justice and mercy, see McGrath, “Justice and Justification”; for a discussion that non-specialists might find somewhat more accessible, see Brinsmead, “The Scandal of God‘s Justice: Part 1”; and for an exhaustive review of the biblical evidence, see Marshall, Beyond Retribution, chapter 2: “The Justice of God in Paul and Jesus.”
33 Rom 11:32.
34 See Talbott, “Grace, Character Formation,and Predestination unto Glory,” 22.
35 “The Voice of Job.” In Unspoken Sermons , 340, 342– 43.

Saturday, March 10, 2012

Roger Olson, "Piper & Judgment round 2"

Roger Olson and John Piper, round two. Qualifications from Olson follow. 


"True, in this particular blog entry Piper does not explicitly say the tornadoes were God’s judgment on those towns. He does say, however, that the tornadoes were “God’s fingers.” In light of everything else he has written and said about calamaties and catastrophes, it is clear to me that he believes not only this tornado outbreak but every natural and man-made disaster (including the 9/11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, D.C.) are from God and not only in some attenuated sense in which most Christians would say they are from God by concurrence. (That is, by God’s permission and granted ability as the creator and governor of nature.)"
Olson/Piper II

Olson very often engages with folks who comment. If you have something to contribute, I'm fairly certain he'll answer. I might even post something myself. ;-)

--Nick

Wednesday, March 7, 2012

Roger Olson, "Catholic-Evangelical Dialogue part 1"


I'm still not certain why Catholics are viewed as sub-biblical by other Christians. I'm reading this now, maybe I'll get some answers. This series, either way, should be interesting.
About a year ago I reported here on an Evangelical-Catholic (or Catholic-Evangelical) dialogue event. Last year I only heard the plenary address which was public. This year I was invited to participate in the following day of theological conversation. I truly appreciate that invitation and opportunity once again to engage in theological dialogue with Catholics and Protestants of other traditions. 
This is the most recent of many Catholic-Evangelical dialogues in which I have    participated . . .
Catholic/Evangelical

--Nick

Tuesday, March 6, 2012

Roger Olson, "You might be an Arminian if. . . "

Olson drops some knowledge.

"So, the approach I’ll take is threefold. First, characteristics I think are minimally necessary to qualify as an Arminian. This is my “generous Arminianism” definition. Second, additional characteristics I think are very valuable for an Arminian to possess. Third, characteristics that I think disqualify a person from being considered an Arminian. 
Before launching into it, however, I should reveal how I go about making these decisions. First, I study the history of Arminianism beginning with Arminius himself and his immediate followers, the first generation Remonstrants (up through the 1620s when all the Remonstrants seemed to be faithful to Arminius’ own teachings). Second, I consider what scholars, theologians, leading ministers who regard themselves as Arminians believe. Third, I look at what scholars who are not Arminians say about it. My “anchor” tends to be Arminius himself."

To continue, Olson and Arminianism


--Nick

Monday, March 5, 2012

Why Satan is more powerful than God: a brief (and hopefully) thoughtful critique


First, the (kinda cool) image:



I will be responding to each line. First, a summation.

There are numerous assumptions either hidden or shown via this picture. The classic "problem of evil," which cannot be dismissed these days, seems to be one such assumption. This is not a negation of the problem of evil, nor is it in anyway praising it. I realize and have struggled with the problem of evil in the past, though mostly due to not having a developed theodicy and simply not knowing how to respond to objections.

But, the issue is not about heaven or hell, or Satan being more powerful or intelligent. It seems to be far more indicative about the nature of God, and how this person sees him.

Line one:


I'm not certain I disagree. However, the verses cited in support do not necessarily support an eternal conscious existence. The verse cited in Romans specifically mentions death, not hell. Revelation is an ambiguous passage that simply states that there are people outside the gates -- gates that never shut. I'm currently reading a book by Brad Jersak called "Her Gates Never Shut" that explores the concept of Revelation and the 'gates that never shut.' More to come.

This does not necessarily support the idea of "hell" as "hell" or hades, is thrown into the lake of fire earlier in chapter 20. Which leaves it open for a possible discussion as to what happens. Many would disagree, but I think there is plenty of room for interpretation.

Line two:


There are MANY other verses that support the idea of God desiring/willing that all men would be saved. Arminians wouldn't disagree, nor would Calvinists (though they have a different take on the phrase "all men.")

I Timothy 2:4 speaks of God's desire to save all men/ Romans 11:32 speaks of having mercy upon all/ Lamentations 3:22 & 3:31-33 speak about God not rejecting forever and being bountiful in love/ The (almost annoying) cliche verse John 3:16.

I'm not certain much more needs to be said. Just that God's love is far greater than one verse. I'm also not convinced that this a secondary goal or desire of his, and indeed I would question the assumption that God's primary goal is to glorify himself. But that is a conversation for another time between friends (hopefully) over alcohol.

Line three:


Wikipedia is not a necessarily valid source of information. I prefer redditt. There are many books written about Biblical prophecy, and simply reading them for yourself is best.

In short, this line ought to be dismissed until actual evidence is offered.

Line four:


I would argue that there are some great reasons (somewhat controversial reasons) that support this claim. But, sure, I don't disagree about what Christ's death accomplished. I prefer the classical view of the atonement versus Penal Substitution, but I'm not interested in dying on any particular hills this evening.

Line five:


I'm not certain Luke 13 is necessarily a parable or not. Instead, it seems that again Jesus is drawing a specific parallel between the people who claimed his name and did not act according to his teachings and the people who acted in accordance with Christ. In fact, I think verse 30 (which was not cited) sums up the entire thrust of the section:

"Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

See the story of Jacob and Esau, as one the lesser will rule the former. And yet they were reconciled at a later time.

This fits perfectly with the parable about the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. It does not seem to speak specifically about eschatological judgment, or even "hell", but of right action inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is, of course, based on the brief memory of an F.F. Bruce commentary on the NT where I think he mentioned something along those lines. I could be mistaken, but it seems to make some sort of sense right now. If shown wrong, I'll re-write. We are very quick to jump upon any teaching about 'hell', but we're also very quick to miss the simplicity of many parables. I think this is a classic example.

So, indeed, v30 of Luke's gospel doesn't necessarily explain eschatological judgment, but provides us with what Christ preached about how we are to act now in accordance with his teachings. Reversalism seems to be the main thrust of the passage, and is amply supported by multiple other Scriptures.

Line six:


I think all Christians would dispute this. My analysis is very brief and simplistic, and I attempt no caricature.

Calvinists would say that God chose specific people in accordance with his purpose and for his glory. This includes only the elect. They would say that God only intended to save the remnant, and thus this satisfies his plan of which the elect are saved.

See John Piper, Wayne Grudem and Gordon Clark. 


Arminians would affirm that God loves everyone, but allows for human freedom and rejection. God does accomplish his plans, but human freedom trumps His ultimate desire for the salvation of all men. His plan to save all according to his foreknowledge, and the fact that all will eventually know of God, is complete. That some do not go to heaven is on the shoulders of those that refuse the free gift of grace, but God's plan on offering salvation is complete.

See Roger Olson, Jacob Arminius, Howard Marshall and Thomas Oden. 


Universalists (specifically Christian and exclusively through Jesus) affirm that God accomplishes his entire will, and that He factored human freedom into his sovereign will, or that through the unlimited election of all souls in compliance with the 4 other points of Calvinism, all shall be saved. This concludes the simple fact that He will save everyone in the end.

I think this option has a lot more weight than previously thought.

See Thomas Talbott, George MacDonald and Robin Parry.


All of the three systems triumphs over Satan, as Satan is genuinely defeated in the end -- either through imprisonment, ultimate death or reconciliation. The elect is saved. All of humanity is without excuse to reject God. All of humanity, regardless of Satan's attempts, will be saved.

Either way, the question is answered and the assertion is ultimately insufficient in it's overall critique.

--Nick

For a different and more Reformed perspective, check out this link from my friend Brandon:

http://www.brandonmelton.com/?p=1737

Wednesday, February 29, 2012

Thomas Oden quote

"There is a quality of lightness, easiness, and in some sense blatant unseriousness that pervades Classical Christianity's dialogue with modernity. The Christian intellect has no reason to be intimidated in the presense of later-stage modernity. Christianity has seen too many 'modern eras' to be cowed by this one."
--Thomas Oden

Monday, February 27, 2012

Roger Olson on "Liberal Theology"

I'm a big fan of Olson, and this post gave me great pause as per usual. "Liberal" is, these days, generally used as a pejorative, intended for the use of indelicate dismission. It is no different than calling someone a "fundamentalist" because they believe in inerrancy. 


Liberal is not a disagreement, but a hermeneutical lens. 


"One of my biggest pet peeves is people throwing labels around when they don’t understand them.  I teach at a seminary often accused by the ignorant of being “liberal” because it allows women to study for the ministry.  I’ve been asked when I “became liberal” and started believing in women’s ordination and women as lead pastors.  The first denomination to ordain women as pastors was the theologically conservative but socially progressive Free Methodist Church and it did that way back in the mid-19th century.  (Quakers, or Friends as they prefer to be called) had women leaders before that but they didn’t exactly “ordain” anyone or have lead pastors in our modern sense.)  I grew up in a very conservative denomination that ordained women.  We had women pastors and evangelists.  Both my birth mother and stepmother were licensed to preach.
People tend to throw the label “liberal” around without regard to history.  Most of the time it means little or nothing more than something they don’t like or agree with and perceive to be too progressive.  When someone says a person or church or institution or book is “liberal” I have no idea what they mean until I press them for a definition.  Usually they can’t give a real definition; they can only say something about their disagreement or dislike.
Looking up “liberal” in the dictionary doesn’t really help.  Most ordinary dictionaries don’t include theology among their definitions.  You can look up “liberal” in most dictionaries and be enlightened about politics and society and perhaps philosophy.  But you are unlikely to find anything there about liberal theology.  Besides, it is a mistake to think words have essences.  There is no “essence” out there corresponding exactly with the sound “liberal.”  The label “liberal” has a history theologically and we should stick to that as closely as possible while recognizing flexibility.
Once again, as before here, I want to suggest a helpful distinction.  This time between “liberalism” as a movement and “liberalism” as an ethos.  (And now I am restricting my comments to theology.)  It is anachronistic to refer to anything as theologically liberal before Friedrich Schleiermacher, the early 19th century “father of liberal theology.”  Schleiermacher was certainly influenced by previous and contemporary thinkers in philosophy and theology, but he almost single handedly created “liberal theology.”  On this most historical theologians are agreed.  (Before Schleiermacher there were “free thinkers” and deists and unitarians but not liberals per se.)
But even Schleiermacher did not found a movement.  In many ways he serves as the paradigm of a liberal ethos in Christian theology.  But that ethos only began to breathe with him; even Schleiermacher was not consistently liberal.  Compared to many later movement liberals such as Adolf Harnack he would be considered relatively conservative insofar as he strove to hold onto as much of Christian tradition as he thought possible in the modern world.
So, the liberal ethos pre-dates the rise of the Christian liberal theological movement that I call “classical Protestant liberalism.”  The latter appeared first with German Lutheran theologian Albrecht Ritschl and his followers in the later 19th century.  Ritschl founded a movement.  His followers came to be called “Ritschlians.”  Classical Protestant liberal theology is tied to the METHOD of the Rischlians (not necessarily to all of their conclusions).  The leading Ritschlians were Harnack and Willhelm Herrmann.  There were, of course, many others.  They disagreed among themselves about many things, but they agreed on theology’s basic method which followed that of Schleiermacher but in a somewhat altered way.
After WW1 and the existentialist revolution in philosophy and theology in Europe classical liberal theology struggled as a movement.  It didn’t exactly die out, but it underwent some significant changes so that historical theologians tend to call its mid-20th century heirs “neo-liberals” or “chastened liberals.”  The main difference was the recognition of a tragic dimension to human existence and history that was lacking in the pre-WW1 liberals.
The liberal theological movement has had its ups and downs and perhaps doesn’t really exist anymore although I have met and read people who seem to agree with it to a large extent.  But, again, I would tend to call them liberal in the “ethos” sense.  Some have come along and tried to breathe new life into the liberal community to restart the old liberal theological movement but with little success.  There are many freelance liberal theologians running around, but I look in vain for an actual movement that includes all or even most of them.
So what is the liberal theological ethos started by Schleiermacher that defines theological liberalism (including the Ritschlian movement and the neo-liberalism of its post-WW1 descendents)?  And where do we find it today?  Who are its contemporary spokespersons?
Schleiermacher introduced into the stream of Christian theology a “Copernican revolution” in theological method that regarded it as necessary to adjust traditional Christianity to the culture of the Enlightenment–what we call “modernity.”  To be sure, Schleiermacher did NOT do this uncritically.  However, he clearly felt it necessary to rescue Christianity from the “acids of modernity” by redefining Christianity’s (and religion’s) “essence” so that it did not and perhaps could not conflict with the “best” of modern thought.  He redefined Christianity as PRIMARILY about human experience.  That is, as he put it, doctrines are nothing more than attempts to bring human experiences of God (God-consciousness) to speech.  Schleiermacher placed universal God-consciousness at the center of religion and Christ’s God-consciousness communicated to the church at the center of Christianity.  All doctrines and all teachings of Scripture became revisable in the light of human God-consciousness.
What Schleiermacher accomplished was to separate religion (including Christianity) from the realm of “facts” discoverable by science and philosophy.  He rescued religion and Christianity from the acids of modernity by reducing them and restricting them to an entirely different realm.  Also, rather than objective divine revelation standing at the center or bottom of the theological enterprise, human experience was placed there.  This was Schleiermacher’s “Copernican revolution” in theology.  All liberal theology (whether by ethos or tied specifically to a liberal theological movement such as Ritschlianism) is defined by that move first made by Schleiermacher.
Ritschl borrowed heavily from the philosopher Immanuel Kant to distinguish between two types of propositions–facts (which belong to the sciences) and values (which belong to religion).  Religion, including Christianity, has to do with the way things ought to be (the Kingdom of God) and not with the way things are.  If Ritschl was right, religion (rightly understood) and modern philosophy and science (kept where they belong) cannot conflict.
Harnack is the paradigm of the classical liberal Protestant theologian.  He reduced Christianity to a minimal ethical core–it’s true “essence”–which cannot be undermined by science or philosophy.
The liberal theologians did not throw out belief in the Trinity or the deity and humanity of Jesus Christ, etc.  They simply reduced their importance (they are not of the essence) and reinterpreted them non-metaphysically.
The leading Ritschlian theologian in America (at the same time as Harnack in Germany) was Henry Churchill King, president of Oberlin College.  His book Reconstruction in Theology was published at the same time as Harnack’s What Is Christianity? (1901)  King’s “reconstruction” of Christianity theology was done under that influence (viz., Ritschl).  The leading Ritschlian public figure was Harry Emerson Fosdick, Jr., pastor of Riverside Church in New York City and author of numerous books of liberal theology.  Fosdick’s countenance graced the cover of Time magazine twice in the 1920s.  He was widely considered THE leading spokesman for liberal theology in America.
After WW1 in Europe and after WW2 in America theological liberalism underwent some changes.  The main one was the death of its historical optimism and adoption of a more realistic sense of human existence and history (largely under the influence of Reinhold Niebuhr).  But it retained its basic attitude toward modernity as an authority for theology’s critical and constructive tasks.  (This was often more implicit than explicit.)
Gradually the liberal theological movement associated with Ritschl and his followers died out.  But the ethos it embodied remained–entering into the warp and woof of mainline Protestant life and thought.  Today it is represented by public intellectuals such as Marcus Borg and John Shelby Spong.  Several theologians are attempting to breathe new life into it.  Among them are Gary Dorrien (perhaps THE leading scholar of liberal theology especially in America), Peter Hodgson, Donald Miller (of USC, not the author of Blue Like Jazz), and John Cobb.
So what are the usual, if not universal, hallmarks of true liberal theology or family resemblances among true liberal theologians?  First, here are books you MUST read if you want to discuss liberal theology intelligently.  (Read at least one of these.)  Alan P. F. Sell, Theology in Turmoil, William R. Hutchison, The Modernist Impulse in American Protestantism, Kenneth Cauthen, The Impact of American Religious Liberalism, Gary Dorrien, The Making of American Liberal Theology (3 volumes), Peter Hodgson, Liberal Theology: A Radical Vision, John Cobb, Progressive Christians Speak, and Donald E. Miller, The Case for Liberal Christianity.
So what do all these people from Schleiermacher to Dorrien have in common?  I think the liberal theological ethos is best expressed in a nutshell by liberal theologian Delwin Brown (a convert to liberal theology from evangelicalism) in his dialogue with Clark Pinnock in Theological Crossfire: An Evangelical/Liberal Dialogue.  There Brown asks THE CRUCIAL QUESTION of modern theology: “When the consensus of the best contemporary minds differs markedly from the most precious teachings of the past, which do we follow?  To which do we give primary allegiance, the past or the present?”  Brown rightly gives the evangelical answer: “We ought to listen to the hypotheses of the present and take from them what we can, but ultimately the truth has been given to us in the past, particularly in Jesus, and the acceptance of that is our ultimate obligation.  Everything the contemporary world might say must be judged by its conformity to biblical revelation.”  (Of course evangelicals differ among ourselves about WHAT biblical revelation says, but all evangelicals agree that the revelation of God given in Jesus and the biblical message takes precedence over the best of modern thought WHEN THERE IS AN UNAVOIDABLE CONFLICT between them.)
Then, Brown speaks for all liberal theologians when he gives the liberal answer to the crucial question: “Liberalism at its best is more likely to say, ‘We certainly ought to honor the richness of the Christian past and appreciate the vast contribution it makes to our lives, but finally we must live by our best modern conclusions.  The modern consensus should not be absolutized; it, too, is always subect to criticism and further revision.  But our commitment, however tentative and self-critically maintained, must be to the careful judgments of the present age, even if they differ radically from the dictates of the past.” (p. 23)
(Now, a good illustration of the difference between fundamentalism and evangelicalism can be given in an anecdote about the Pinnock-Brown dialogue in this book.  Some years ago I used the book as a textbook in an elective class.  One of the students, a theology major, objected strenuously to having to read it.  He argued vehemently that dialogue between liberals such as Brown and evangelicals has no value and that Pinnock’s attempt at it proves he is not a true evangelical.  I would consider that an expression of a fundamentalist as opposed to an evangelical attitude.)
Pinnock well expresses ALL evangelicals’ response to Brown, this in the context of a disagreement about eschatology in which Brown expressed skepticism about belief in a final triumph of good over evil.  Pinnock to Brown: “Here we are back to where we started in the book, back to the difference between us concerning the nature of the authority of the Bible.  … You allow the Bible a functional but not a cognitive authority; that is, you will not bow to the content of Scripture but accept it only as a power that authors your life in some (to me) vague way.  This means in the present case that you are not able to rest your hope on the revealed promises of God concerning eternal life in Christ beyond death.  Usually I appreciate your modesty in the way you do theology, but when it comes down to your not affirming clear promises of God in the gospel, the modesty is being taken too far.  Lacking guidance from the Scriptures and as if to underline my anxiety, you are forced to resolve the issue rationally and then cannot do so.  Thus is the problem of liberal theology highlighted.” (p. 249)
In a nutshell, then, the liberal theological ethos accords to “the best of modern thought” the weight of authority in theology alongside or stronger than biblical revelation (and certainly than tradition).  This is what Yale historical theologian Claude Welch meant when he wrote that liberal theology is “maximal acknowledgement of the claims of modernity.”
What is ironic is that Pinnock has been labeled “liberal” in spite of his strong rejection of real liberal theology in this and many of his writings.  Those who called Pinnock a liberal simply revealed themselves as neo-fundamentalists (who often if not usually use “liberal” as an epithet for anyone and anything they think deviates from their version of “the received evangelical tradition.”)
There are, of course, other family resemblances among theological liberals such as a tendency to emphasize the immanence of God over God’s transcendence, skepticism about anything supernatural or miraculous (if not rejection of those categories entirely), out-and-out, open universalism (a true denial of hell as opposed to a hope for eventual ultimate reconciliation), an emptying of the “dogma” category and corresponding reduction of all Christian beliefs to the opinion category.
Someone like Pinnock is called a fundamentalist by those on the “left” and a liberal by those on the “right.”  These are fallacious and invalid uses of these labels.  They have NOTHING to do with history.  Theological labels should not be torn away from history and used in such an informal manner as epithets to insult or marginalize people.  That is why I have written this post and I hope it helps people who want to use labels with integrity to do so.  I realize, of course, that many people don’t care about that; they just want to demean other people they don’t like by slapping negative labels on them."
Olson and Liberal Theology


--Nick