Sick Burn Theology -- : a method, or expression, of putting
down anyone who falls outside of your tribe. Usually within the realms
of uninvolved social media.
Its something we're
all guilty of, especially in the age of faceless opponents. Often, in my
case, its very easy to dismiss and condescend to someone you don't
know. Rendered in pixels and imager instant backhands, its become sort
of a phenomenon. This isn't hindered by Twitter which reduces
complexities to something the length of a single sentence.
This
can include everyone from myself to you to Mark Driscoll to Brian
McLaren. This generally isn't regulated to a single group or tribe. You
can sense simmering piety in the words of emergent leaders who talk
beyond the fundamentalists, and you would be hard pressed to find a
fundamentalist who genuinely cares to listen.
Part of
the issue could be accounted for in the millennial controversy (Rachel
Held Evans for instance; see Greg Boyd for the general debate). For instance, one wonders if millennials
are vindicated in leaving the church, especially when the church is only
just beginning to emerge from a post-fundamentalist era. Do we change
or die? Or do we just keep things static and horizontal? The answer is
elusive and beyond the confines of my research so I will just leave this
here to extrapolate later.
Millennials, in reduction,
are a generation home-grown on social-interactive media, pixels and
sarcasm. Its no secret that twitter is far more popular amongst us and
we are singularly the one group that feels the most isolated. What does
this have to do with theology, especially the kind I alluded to in the
title?
Simply, I do worry that my generation is part of
the problem. We've reduced interactions, in some significant part, to
putting down the established church. For example, you find
fundamentalist pastors who enjoy putting down opponents in their sermons
while never actually engaging with their concerns. You also have a
decentralized network of post-emergent leaders who thrive off the same
sort of condescension, equating cultural shifts with theological
necessity.
It is difficult to tell the church why
you are leaving when you only have 140 characters. Many of us are at
least two characters, maybe more.
So what do we do?
Its
easy for those of us not in the neo-puritan movement to write blog
posts about Mark Driscoll and John Piper, and it is just as easy for
them to throw off some 'sick burns' from the pulpit at unnamed (but
obvious) opponents.
So we need a Pope.
Not really.
But
I do wonder if "sick burn theology" is simply a fad -- or worse -- a
reduction of my generation. Since we tend to proclaim openness and
inclusivism and dialogue as major tenants of our faith, why then are we
so fractured? Its no secret that I tend to be theological conservative,
but most of my conservative friends consider me liberal.
In
a polarized culture torn between two extremes, I don't see millennials
getting any better at bridging this gap simply because we have no sense
of history. We could simply change and be perfect, but in some sense, we
might like the conflict. In some ways, it may make us 'morally
superior.' In other ways, it just makes us petty. Personally, I've been
guilty of both so this is something more for us to reconsider.
Consider
this a plea: continue to dialogue in humility with your brothers and
sisters within the church. The church has gone from radical abolitionism
to Jim Crow to wherever we are now. The church, she is flexible. Us, on
the other hand, should drop the 'sick burn' mentality and practice some
more yoga.
In short, stop. Just stop. Listen. Breathe.
Take a chill pill. Step away from twitter, Facebook and instagram.
Avoid reduction and embrace the complexities of life.
And we really need a Pope.
--Nick
Showing posts with label Liberalism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Liberalism. Show all posts
Sunday, August 4, 2013
Monday, February 18, 2013
Fundamentalism, or the Inability to Play Safely on the Playground
I know Roger Olson and others have begun to post quite a bit on this subject, but I offer (an admittedly biased) comment on this pernicious topic.
Allison:
Fundamentalist?For the rest, enjoy it here.
Christian Fundamentalism, especially of the evangelical stripe, has also been confusing. In part this is because evangelicalism at one point transitioned from revivalism into fundamentalism and then back out (though some fundamentalists are also evangelical!). For a while “fundamentalism” just meant one adhered to the fundamentals of the faith. However, it became deeply reactionary against culture and withdrew, especially after the Scopes Trial. They pulled out of their denominations and started to create their own schools in order to maintain doctrinal “purity.” While many who are fundamentalists hold to certain views (premillenialism, dispensationalism, penal substitution, young earth creationism, KJV only and some form of patriarchy—at least today) and tend to resist certain behaviors (no movies, no card playing, and no drinking), not everyone who holds to one or several of these is a fundamentalist.
Evangelicalism is quite diverse. However, Some parts that are key to fundamentalism are: 1) The tendency to view only itself as true evangelicalism at the exclusion of everyone else, 2) non-essentials of the faith become essential (ex: one is not a true Christian if they drink or go see rated R movies), 3) a tendency to separate from what they do not agree with and 4) they are aggressively anti a lot of things such as: Catholicism, evolution, or ecumenicalism. Fundamentalists very often have what they call a “literal” view of Scripture, which is more like a rigid understanding of the inerrancy doctrine and resists all Biblical criticism.
--Nick
Wednesday, January 16, 2013
Evangelicalism, The Center and Boundaries
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Do Brian McLaren and Mark Driscoll both have a legitimate claim to be an "evangelical?" Of course, I would make the distinction that an evangelical can be either liberal, moderate or conservative but that is neither here nor there.
I think Roger Olson's post moves us towards a possible consensus. Roger Olson stated, "It has always seemed self-evident to me that movements cannot have boundaries. In fact, secretly, only to myself, I have long considered people who think movements can have boundaries either disingenuous or sociologically ignorant. Organizations have boundaries; movements do not. It’s self-evident. Movements have centers, not boundaries" (1).
If one looks at fundamentalism within the 1920s to the 50s, you get a clear look into the heart of remnant theology rooted in dispensationalism, coupled with the fear of the Soviet empire in the 60s and so on. Today, you have many folks within Protestantism who would prefer a smaller venue with less distinctions in term of doctrinal strife.
Or, in other words, doctrine trumps fellowship.
So, it makes sense that many conservative Christians put inerrancy up as the deciding vote on whether or not one is an evangelical. Besides the difficulty in defining inerrancy to most people's satisfaction, one is really out in a leaky lifeboat if they think the resurrection is as important as the complete historical and scientific accuracy of Scripture.
Biblicism. Conversionism. Crucicentrism. Activism. Bebbington put these out there to attempt a calm in a sea of bewildering chaos. Beyond being disputed by DA Carson among others, people make a point that doctrine is the method by which we measure one's orthodoxy, not character or sociology.
I think we've got multiple deep-rooted problems here, not the least of which is that the people who want to define the legitimacy of certain trump card doctrines all more or less believe the same thing. Therefore, evangelicalism is an exclusive or even ecclesiocentric patchwork quilt, not a big billowing tent.
Another issue comes about when you have people who seem to fall outside the realm of "evangelical" but still desire the label. Do we honor the request for the title, redefine the title or entirely exclude the inquirer? I confess, I don't know.
Olson, "Thus, I argue that evangelicalism, like Pietism, charismatic movement, “New Age,” etc., etc. refers to a category that can only be defined in terms of prototypes that constitute a center. I would put Noll’s and Bebbington’s four hallmarks at that center and with them Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley. What did those men have in common that was not as noticeable among most of their peers in Protestant Christianity? I would say those would be biblicism, conversionism, crucicentrism and activism. And I would add to that a tendency strongly to defend the Great Tradition of Christian orthodoxy (broadly defined). Yes, to be sure, there were others who displayed the same characteristics, but they especially stand out as the prototypes of the Great Awakenings of the eighteenth century that gave birth to the modern evangelical movement" (1).
I will confess that I think evangelicalism is a big tent constituency, and I think one can very easily be an evangelical if they hold to the general terms outlined above. The issues these days is more or less a redefinition of the terms.
The question is, do we allow it or fight it? I have no idea.
--Nick
Monday, October 15, 2012
Abortion vs. Gay Marriage, A Contemplation About Priorities
I was thinking about this a while back, and asked my friend David and my girlfriend Allison about their thoughts. As usual, both had lucid answers that helped clarify things.
The question was this:
What are your thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Why? Why not?
--Nick
The question was this:
Which would you choose to completely outlaw (doing so in a civil way that takes into account the changing not only of minds but of hearts) gay marriage or abortion if only ONE option were available?For my part, I would gladly choose the sanctity of life. I realize this is a contentious issue, but my goal is to determine what folks prioritize, particularly in polarized times. So be nice.
What are your thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Why? Why not?
--Nick
Monday, September 3, 2012
"Are You Theologically Liberal?"
Allison:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2011/01/inclusivism-arminianism-and-liberalism/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2011/07/what-is-theological-liberalism/
For her original post, click HERE.
--Nick
On his blog, Roger Olson addresses the misunderstanding of the label “liberal” and explains its proper meaning. The following is taken mostly from what he wrote in his blog and contains only a couple of my explanations.http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2010/10/liberal-theology/
What is Liberal Theology?
From what I understand, liberal theology has more to do with the method one uses to arrive at conclusions rather than the conclusions themselves. Two people could both hold to the same conclusions about theology, but arrive at those conclusions in very different ways.
While there is flexibility in the term itself, there does seem to be a definition or two we can work with. According to Claude Welch, a “well-known and highly regarded authority on nineteenth century theology, liberal theology is ‘maximal accommodation to the claims of modernity.’ Contemporary expert on liberal theology, Gary Dorrien (author of a three volume history of American liberal religion) defines it as refusal to recognize any authority outside the self.”
What is the Method used?
Schleiermacher (the “father of liberal theology”) introduced a method where it was necessary to adjust traditional Christianity to modernity. He was trying to save Christianity from being in conflict with “the ‘best’ of modern thought. He redefined Christianity as PRIMARILY about human experience.” He ended up separating the realm of religion from the realm of facts that was observable by science and philosophy. If the two were in separate realms, Christianity could not be threatened.
Delwin Brown asks an important question and includes an answer: “’When the consensus of the best contemporary minds differs markedly from the most precious teachings of the past, which do we follow? To which do we give primary allegiance, the past or the present?’
…Liberalism at its best is likely to say, ‘We certainly ought to honor the richness of the Christian past and appreciate the vast contribution it makes to our lives, but finally we must live by our best modern conclusions. The modern consensus should not be absolutized; it, too, is always subject to criticism and further revision. But our commitment, however tentative and self-critically maintained, must be to the careful judgments of the present age, even if they differ radically from the dictates of the past.” Olson comments, Scholarship determines the inadequacies of traditional doctrine and so “the only work is that of re-forming theological thought to the superior insights of the present time.”
Short Critique:
Pinnock makes the critique that the liberal allows the Bible “a functional but not a cognitive authority; that is, you will not bow to the content of Scripture but accept it only as a power that authors your life in some (to me) vague way… Lacking guidance from the Scriptures… you are forced to resolve the issue rationally and then cannot do so. “
Some History:
*Friedrich Schleiermacher (early 19th century) is considered by most to be the
“father of liberal theology” and yet the “ethos” of liberalism started before him and compared to others who came after him, he might be considered more conservative. What Olson called “’classical Protestant liberalism’ appeared first with German Lutheran theologian Albrecht Ritschl and his followers in the later 19th century.”
*“Classical Protestant liberal theology is tied to the METHOD of the Rischlians (not necessarily to all of their conclusions). The leading Ritschlians were Harnack and Willhelm Herrmann. There were, of course, many others. They disagreed among themselves about many things, but they agreed on theology’s basic method which followed that of Schleiermacher but in a somewhat altered way.”
*After WWI Classical liberalism went through some changes with the previous optimism being abandoned. The mid-20th century airs to the movement are often called “neo-liberals”. “The main difference was the recognition of a tragic dimension to human existence and history that was lacking in the pre-WW1 liberals.”
Suggested Reading:
1) Alan P. F. Sell, Theology in Turmoil
2) William R. Hutchison, The Modernist Impulse in American Protestantism
3) Kenneth Cauthen, The Impact of American Religious Liberalism
4) Gary Dorrien, The Making of American Liberal Theology (3 volumes)
5) Peter Hodgson, Liberal Theology: A Radical Vision
6) John Cobb, Progressive Christians Speak
7) Donald E. Miller, The Case for Liberal Christianity
The following are Olson’s posts on the subject. The first two deal more with how the term “liberal” has been misused and the last post will give you the most information on liberal theology and what it is.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2011/01/inclusivism-arminianism-and-liberalism/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2011/07/what-is-theological-liberalism/
For her original post, click HERE.
--Nick
Friday, August 3, 2012
Deconstructing "Hellbound?"
I'll confess, I'm generally not a fan of documentaries. I had to sit through several of them while at Biola, and I always found time to twiddle my thumbs and pretty much ignore everything else.Well, Hellbound? is the first documentary that both moved me and annoyed me to no end.
Allow me to explain.
Rob Bell's Love Wins brought about a major shift in the tone of evangelicalism. Some reacted, some reconsidered. But a conversation began, starting with a multitude of books and blog posts denouncing Rob Bell. Even the SBC got involved, affirming their commitment to eternal conscious torment. So, clearly, a differing view of hell sparked enough of a debate to warrant intelligent conversation on the topic of eternal damnation.
Writer/Director Kevin Miller takes us on a journey that deals with his own personal struggles with eternal conscious torment, and the idea that God would send/allow some to go to hell. His encounters involve laymen such as the "God hates fags" protestors outside the 9/11 memorial, to famous and controversial pastors such as Mark Driscoll and Brian McLaren. They all offer varying ideas, some of them quite extreme and others predictably toeing the traditional party line.
However, after setting the stage with what is at stake, the film takes a far more intellectual route, dealing with philosophy of religion, ethics, retributive justice and the meaning/s of the word "hell" in Scripture. Kevin marshals ample resources in the form of Brad Jersak, Sharon Baker and Michael Hardin. Greg Boyd makes several appearances to offer his clear perspective on things, but Robin Parry (one of my favorite scholars) has some a very wise perspective he offers. The interview is revealing, and quite profound in it's implications.
Though the film is somber and serious, there are some amusing moments in regards to prominent pastors screaming, and some charming anecdotes from Michael Hardin. It doesn't smack of the cheap editing tricks of "Religulous" but some/many may find them offensive anyway.
What annoyed me most about Hellbound? is the same thing that annoys me when I watch the evening news or listen to talk radio. Like I was, you will be tempted to yell at the screen and start arguing with a computer monitor. Hearing distinctions between theologies that I don't find compelling in the slightest really grated against my instincts. But this is to be expected.
You will be provoked, you will be challenged, and I do think you may be changed. The topic of hell can be extraordinarily divisive, but it would be a debate amongst Christians to conduct in love and respect. There is something in here to offend everyone, but none of it is intended to undermine or disrespect. Hellbound? offers much respect towards each view, though it does not shy away from revealing it's own conclusions on the matter.
Like "Lord, Save Us From Your Followers," "Hellbound?" isn't interested in simple answers to complex questions. Indeed, many of the scholars and pastors interviewed are skeptical or hopeful or pessimistic about the state of the afterlife. You run the gamut between conservative evangelicals to progressives like Franky Schaeffer, and all have much to say on this topic. The finale of "Hellbound?" is deeply unsettling for some, but it is also moving and forthright.
The media hype about Rob Bell's Love Wins is nothing compared to the potential that Hellbound? is going to offer evangelical and progressive Christians. If Love Wins was a firestorm, Helbound? is a tactical nuclear strike and it's fallout will be felt for quite a long time.
Be open, be honest, and be prepared to have your buttons pushed.
I will post a more in-depth review once the film is released on September 21. You can check out the website for the film HERE.
--Nick
Sunday, July 22, 2012
Craig Keener and the Evangelical Left
Craig Keener:
--Nick
Public reports usually focus on the majority of evangelicals recently affiliated with the religious right. We generally hear little, however, about the third of evangelicals who lean in the other direction (except for a few well-known figures such as Tony Campolo or Jim Wallis). Likewise, many do not realize that evangelicals have never been a permanent constituency of the right: through most of their history, most evangelicals have been politically varied and unpredictable. President Obama and other Democrats who have tried to reach out to evangelicals, therefore, act strategically, even though it will undoubtedly take time for major shifts of political affiliation to occur.For the rest, click HERE.
The association of evangelicals with the political right is recent, not characteristic of the evangelical heritage. Indeed, even the emphasis on separation of church and state in the West arose especially among Anabaptists who faced persecution for dissenting from the state churches. From the late 18th century on, social justice was a defining characteristic of evangelical faith, and the abolition of the slave trade, and ultimately slavery itself, became the leading evangelical social agenda. William Wilberforce and his allies achieved this outcome fairly peacefully in the British Empire. Many evangelicals worked for abolitionism in the United States as well, though the issue ultimately divided this country and its churches, often along geographic lines, and culminated in a civil war. After the war, those evangelicals who had supported abolition remained in the forefront of working for justice among the poor.
What happened to evangelical social concern? In the early 20th century the modernist-fundamentalist controversy polarized many churches. "Modernists" argued for accommodating modern knowledge and "fundamentalists" (not initially a pejorative term) argued for maintaining what they saw as the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Although the spectrum of Christian opinion was actually much more diverse (for example, most African-American churches never felt part of either camp), extreme voices often polarized their constituencies. As characterized by their opponents, these voices either abandoned historic Christian doctrines or rejected modern knowledge. (Such dismissive stereotypes persist today, most frequently as unfair caricatures.)
--Nick
Sunday, April 29, 2012
Right-Wing Cafeteria?
I looked at this photo for five minutes, and it took me a while to consider my choice of words. I guess there are several points:
1) I can name approximately three people off the top of my head that actually believe this. I guess those three people are pretty loud to justify this type of photo.
2) For all it's bluster, the entire photo is legislating in intolerant and simplistic rhetoric. I expect tolerance of other views coming from the Left. It sounds like Michael Savage has left a large carbon footprint on this photo.
3) I'm frankly sick of this type of dialogue, because there isn't any. The photo is not offering a rational critique, it is beating the stuffing out of a scarecrow and declaring a unanimous victory.
4) Granted, some folks actually believe in the stereotypes put forth in this photo. That's nothing really, as we can trace this type of thinking back to Fred Phelps, and well . . . he's a democrat.
5) This photo epitomizes why many conservative Christians ignore liberal Christians, and visa versa. Its very easy to stand on the shoulders of those you don't respect, but I think it takes true courage to actually listen.
In short: stupid photo, unrealistic rhetoric drenched in a side of hypocrisy. And, for the vinyl, I don't consider myself politically conservative. Fnarr fnarr.
--Nick
1) I can name approximately three people off the top of my head that actually believe this. I guess those three people are pretty loud to justify this type of photo.
2) For all it's bluster, the entire photo is legislating in intolerant and simplistic rhetoric. I expect tolerance of other views coming from the Left. It sounds like Michael Savage has left a large carbon footprint on this photo.
3) I'm frankly sick of this type of dialogue, because there isn't any. The photo is not offering a rational critique, it is beating the stuffing out of a scarecrow and declaring a unanimous victory.
4) Granted, some folks actually believe in the stereotypes put forth in this photo. That's nothing really, as we can trace this type of thinking back to Fred Phelps, and well . . . he's a democrat.
5) This photo epitomizes why many conservative Christians ignore liberal Christians, and visa versa. Its very easy to stand on the shoulders of those you don't respect, but I think it takes true courage to actually listen.
In short: stupid photo, unrealistic rhetoric drenched in a side of hypocrisy. And, for the vinyl, I don't consider myself politically conservative. Fnarr fnarr.
--Nick
Wednesday, April 11, 2012
"You Know You're a Liberal If. . ."
I don't buy most of this, so I figured I'd answer each one. For fun.
You can discern the geographic distance between Kenya and Hawaii.
Guilty. Not liberal.
Bernie Sanders is one of your favorite senators.
Who? Oh. Yeah, not a fan.
You’re seriously considering dropping Verizon and switching to Credo Mobile.
What does my phone service have to do with my (lackof) liberalism?
You get much of your news from Rachel Maddow, Bill Maher and/or Jon Stewart.
Very guilty of this.
You’re in favor of tax increases to support the common good even if you have to pay more yourself.
Nope. Not liberal here.
You recognize that marijuana is physically less harmful than either cigarettes or alcohol.
I recognize that.
You understand Citizens United is about 5 conservative justices who are united against citizens and who favor the corporate control of elections.
Never read it. Will watch movie if it comes out. #intentionalignoranceforhumorssake
You get that Ron Paul is no better than the Tea Party.
Actually, I fully agree with this.
You’ve pissed off a conservative in your life by railing against Fox News or Sarah Palin.
Guilty.
You have an “Obama ‘08” or “Obama 2012” logo riding on your bumper.
I don't have any bumpstickers on my car.
You are a fan of a dozen or more liberal pages on Facebook.
*goes and counts
Ehhh. Roughly half and half, probably more.
At some point, you wore dreads or went barefoot in public – or you know a few people who fit this description.
My hear doesn't dread. I have gone barefoot in public though.
You read food labels.
That's where they put directions, right?
You have gay friends and you respect them.
I don't know how they are using the term "respect" but sure. I respect my gay friends quite a bit.
You probably graduated from college and your degree probably isn’t in marketing or business administration.
Screenwriting and a minor in theology? It isn't marketing but it is a bible minor.
You post to Facebook and Twitter in support of liberal causes. A conservative friend may have un-friended you because of your posts.
I think conservative friends may have unfriended me for theological reasons rather than political. Of course, liberal friends have unfriended me for the same reason.
You support the middle class.
Nope. 1% ftw.
You don’t think NPR is biased.
I do think NPR is biased. I also think FOX is biased.
You think the Koch brothers are evil.
Heheh. *Koch*
You’ve been following the dogged and brave uprising in Wisconsin.
There's an uprising in Wisconsin? If it's been longer than four hours, might want to get that checked out.
You prefer to breathe non-cancer-causing air and drink non-toxic water.
I think any human being with instinct would prefer this option.
You value a good standard of living for the public over corporate profits.
I'm not opposed to either.
You believe people should be able to choose, in private, the family planning option that’s right for them.
Okay, this bugged me. What's being suggested here? I don't get it. Like homeschooling?
Can't say I have.
You are serious about recycling.
Yeah. Blue can/ black can.
You actually care that the ice caps are melting, coral reefs are dying and bio-diversity is diminishing.
You mean there will be less ice for my baby seal/oil martini?
You can find Iraq on a map while realizing that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
I can find Iraq on a map.
You’ve been called a hippie, a bleeding heart or a tree hugger.
Actually, I have been called all three. I don't remember any good reason why.
You believe education and health care should be subsidized for the common good.
Ehhh, not really.
GOP voter suppression is ticking you off enough to mobilize the vote within your circles.
Because the GOP is only suppressing people. Bah.
You’ve given to a homeless person – ever.
I gave him a penny and told him to keep the change. And then I kicked his shopping cart.
You cringe when you hear Obama referred to as a “one-term president.”
Yeah. One-term was too much. C'mon fellas, too easy.
You have gotten into a heated online debate with a Republican troll and even though you didn’t change their mind it still felt good to defeat their logic.
Actually, yes. It was kinda fun.
This is a work in progress! Add your own “You know you’re a liberal if” line below and we may include it in the sequel!
For the LINK at AddictingInfo.
This was actually kinda fun. ;-)
--Nick
Monday, March 26, 2012
Scot McKnight, "Evangelicalism's Political Sin"
It happened under Reagan, and it is American evangelicalism’s political sin. When evangelicalism aligns itself with a political party, which happened under Reagan (I call it “Reaganology”), it seals its doom as a credible gospel witness. We are beginning to reap what we sowed.
(Reuters) – Americans are increasingly uneasy with the mingling of religion and politics, according to a poll released Wednesday by the Pew Research Center, in the midst of a campaign season punctuated by tussles over the role of faith in the public square.
Back in 2001, when Pew first asked the question, just 12 percent of Americans complained that their politicians talked too much about religion.
That number has risen steadily ever since and hit a record high in the new poll: 38 percent of Americans, including 24 percent of Republicans, now say their political leaders are overdoing it with their expressions of faith and prayer.
And more Americans than ever, 54 percent, believe churches should keep out of politics. That’s up from 43 percent in 1996, according to the Pew Research Center.
The national poll of 1,503 adults, which has a margin of error of 3 percentage points, was conducted in early March, as the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops was ramping up its vigorous campaign against a new federal mandate requiring all insurance companies to provide free birth control.
The bishops continue to press that fight. Just last week, they issued a statement declaring they were “strongly unified and intensely focused” on battling the contraception mandate.
A leading voice in that campaign, Bishop William E. Lori of Bridgeport, Connecticut, this week was promoted to Archbishop of Baltimore by Pope Benedict XVI.
Peter Steinfels, co-director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University, said Americans have generally tolerated and even encouraged religious leaders to speak out on broad political issues, including capital punishment, immigration and poverty.
MORE SKEPTICAL
But Americans have long been uncomfortable with religious leaders directly involved in partisan campaigns, he said.
In recent years, most notably in the birth control battle, that line has been blurred, Steinfels said – which may account for the growing unease on display in the Pew poll.
“Religious leaders ought to be worried,” Steinfels said. “We’re seeing Americans becoming more skeptical” about the propriety of religious involvement in politics.
The bishops have sought to portray the contraceptive mandate as one prong of a broad attack on religion by state and federal authorities. The leading Republican presidential candidates have echoed that rhetoric on the campaign trail, accusing the Obama Administration of declaring war on religious freedom.
The Pew poll found evidence that argument is resonating with Catholics. Roughly one in four U.S. voters is Catholic and they are a crucial swing vote in several states pivotal to the 2012 presidential election, like Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania.
The poll found 25 percent of Catholics perceive the Obama administration as unfriendly to religion, up from 15 percent in a Pew poll taken in August of 2009.
The increase is even sharper among white Catholics, jumping to 31 percent from 17 percent, Pew found.
Among the public overall, 23 percent describe the Obama administration as unfriendly to religion, up from 17 percent in 2009. But another recent poll suggests the “war on religion” argument isn’t gaining traction with most adults.
A national survey conducted this month by the Public Religion Research Institute found a majority of Americans, 56 percent, do not believe religious liberty is under siege.
Republicans, senior citizens and white evangelicals were most likely to see a looming threat to religious freedom.
(Reporting By Stephanie Simon; editing by Marilyn W. Thompson and Todd Eastham)
McKnight/Jesus Creed
--Nick
Monday, March 19, 2012
An Arminian Egalitarian 'Heretic' Defends John Piper?
Let me be clear -- I am not a complementarian. I am not a calvinist. I am -- in general -- not a fan of John Piper as a person or as a theologian. I think someone needs to step up and say something about much of what he says. But, here, I think Piper is not only taken quite strongly out of context but is done so with spite and not love. So, today, I side with John Piper.
Tony Jones, a theologically progressive Christian and titan within the Emergent Church movement, today blogged about John Piper's recent interview with The Christian Post. In it, Piper made several comments and Tony has taken exception with several of them.
But first, here is the entire question and answer:
Should a pastor continue in ministry if one of his sons, arriving at a mature age, proves to be an unbeliever?
Well, as you know, that hits close to home. So maybe the best thing I can do is tell you the way the elders at Bethlehem managed this, because that's me.
When that happened, I went to the elders and I said to them, "Here's the situation. I think my son needs to be pursued by the elders as far as you can, and then he needs to be excommunicated if he doesn't respond." He was 19 years old.
And so for I forget how many months they did this. Maybe six months or so. And I said, "I am willing to step back and go on a leave of absence, or resign, or whatever you think appropriate in this situation." They never faced this before with any theological thoroughness.
So for those months they were pursuing him, talking with him. He was working for one of the elders at the time, and they had some conversations. And we were studying the issue, because it says in Titus 1:5-6 that the children of elders should be pista (faithful). Tekna is the neuter word for "children" in Greek, and pista agrees with it. So it is "faithful children."
Now if you just absolutize that as "they must be believers" then not only would I have had to resign, but every pastor would have to resign until his children become believers. (I'm giving you one of the arguments against it. Children become believers, they're not born believers-unless you have a very unusual view of baptism as an infant baptizer.)
So the idea would be that you can't be a pastor until they become believers-say, nobody with children under six should be a pastor. Or another take would be that if they profess faith and then walk away from it you have to leave the pastorate.
Well the elders studied that through and they wrote a paper. It was just a two page thing that said that a pastor shouldn't resign on account of an unbelieving adult child. [Editor's note: This paper isn't available, but you can read another similar one by Justin Taylor.]
And so they let me press on, but we did follow through with the discipline. And God was merciful to, I believe, use that letting go to awaken and restore. And I'm thankful for it.
So I don't think the point of those stipulations in 1 Timothy and Titus is to lead to the quick resignations of pastors, but to discern whether a man has a maturity and a giftedness to lead a well-ordered family. That's what it's for.
How can you manage the flock if you can't manage your household? And good management doesn't mean perfect outcome. It didn't for God, and it doesn't for us.Certainly, there are sections of this that ought to have been said in a more careful tone. These days, it is very easy to provide critics with one decent soundbite to incite global nuclear war. But, that is beside the point.
Tony quotes Piper and responds to several sections of the interview.
Piper: Well, as you know, that hits close to home. So maybe the best thing I can do is tell you the way the elders at Bethlehem managed this, because that’s me.
When that happened, I went to the elders and I said to them, “Here’s the situation. I think my son needs to be pursued by the elders as far as you can, and then he needs to be excommunicated if he doesn’t respond.” He was 19 years old.
Tony: I don’t know what’s more shocking, that Piper was ready to excommunicate his 19-year-old son, or that his son’s sin was that he was (is?) an “unbeliever.”
I think a closer examination will show quite the opposite. I do not, for an instant, think Piper would excommunicate his son if he thought there was ANY chance of his son repenting. I could hardly imagine a father casting his son aside in such a way. To do so not only seems unjust, but anti-salvation.
I do not think Piper is saying what Tony thinks he is saying. Piper, to me, seems to view this as something to be viewed as a last resort. If anything, the notion begins with attempted reconciliation. I'm not entirely convinced that it is the job of the elders to chastise Piper's son, but regardless, the aim of Piper was first and foremost to help his son, not cast him out.
I think Tony is focusing on the latter part, and not on Piper the father. Though Piper has said some things in the past that makes an Arminian/Egalitarian like myself cringe and jump up and down on my sofa, he has said nothing here to merit the "shock" from Tony.
The second part that Tony address is thus. His words are in blue. Piper's are in italics:
Piper: I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: someone who is blameless, married only once, whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious.
What’s an inerrantist pastor to do when one of his children turns out not to be a believer? Well, step down immediately, of course. Right? I’m sure that’s exactly what Piper said and did. Let’s go to the tape:
Now if you just absolutize that as “they must be believers” then not only would I have had to resign, but every pastor would have to resign until his children become believers…
Well the elders studied that through and they wrote a paper. It was just a two page thing that said that a pastor shouldn’t resign on account of an unbelieving adult child.
Well, well, well. Isn’t that interesting? It seems that the Bible doesn’t mean exactly what it says. It seems that the Bible has to be interpreted.
I think Tony is -- again -- missing the point. I do think, if one takes that passage to be rigidly literal, then yes. Piper would have to resign and so would many people. But Piper is instead referring to restoring his son. Tony is quite to jump the gun and fixate upon certain select instances of text instead of the bigger picture. John's purpose in this is to help. We could argue about whether him using excommunication it a good way (and I'm not certain it is) but we should have a decent dialogue about this.
Everyone takes the Bible literally when they think it supports their view. Everyone. This is not the best way to do exegesis, but to chide Piper on this is not only uncharitable, it is an example of a tendency many Christians, regardless of affiliation, are quick to do. I do it all the time. I'm making a stand right now. No more. So, frankly, the time has come to stop. Stop behaving like this is elementary school. This is not a call for tolerance or forced agreement. This is a call to act like adults.
Tony's crack at the end about Piper's 'interpretation' of the passages addressing homosexuality smacks of self-righteousness and polemics, not a scholarly attitude.
And, yes, the Bible has to be interpreted. What an absurd comment. Everything Scripture says requires some form of interpretation. And, to take it at face value is a form of interpretation. Disagree and say it is a *bad* form but it is still a form. I do not agree with Piper's interpretation of much of Scripture, but enough is enough.
If the Emergent Church wants to be taken seriously, then it should take others seriously.
According to the original link, it is an edited transcript. I'm not certain we're getting the entire picture here. Anytime a pastor says something that been noted and edited and comes across as naive, we ought to step back and think a bit more.
Piper answered in a way consistent with his theology, for better or worse. I expect Tony to do better than "Farewell John Piper."
Tony Jones
I end this on a quote from a wise friend named James:
"Disagree with someone if you want, but unsubstantiated disagreement is problematic in academia, regardless of who you disagree with."God bless. And if I am incorrect in anything, let me know. I plan on debating with John and Tony in the afterlife, so getting things right now is pretty important.
;-)
--Nick
Sunday, March 11, 2012
"Santorum & Christendom" according to Tony Jones
First, I do not think America is or ever really was a Christian nation. I think it looks nothing like the example given to us in Jesus Christ. I think we potentially shame Him by attributing our nation to His example.
Second, I almost expect the governing body to enforce tolerance/intolerance as they see fit. For them not to do so would be a healthy reminder that cynicism is poisonous to my self-esteem.
Third, the separation of church and state is often touted by many to exclude religious convictions from the public office. I do not see this as possible, nor even necessary. What I interpret the First Amendment to say is that there must be no state run church, see England's Monarchy from which we "fled." Meaning, Rick Santorum cannot start up the "Church of Santorum" but he certainly has the ability to act upon his convictions.
Fourth, I do not think the American Rick Santorum believes in exists. I do not prescribe to idealism within the cesspool of politics for the same reason I do not promote the forcible inhaling of legos through one's nasal cavity.
Fifth, nor do I prescribe to Tony Jones' perspective on american government and politics, and I think he is inconsistent with whom he supports and doesn't support. This, of course, is entirely relative to my own positions. ;-)
Onto the brief responses offered by Tony Jones.
Here’s the thing: the rights afforded us by the First Amendment are sacrosanct, at least in a non-religious sense. But, as a religious person, I abdicate some of my rights when I submit to living in a country with laws. If my religion dictates that I smoke weed, or that I sacrifice cats, I don’t get to do that. My religious rights are not absolute — they are relative, because they are judged in the relative weight with the good for society.I'm not certain utilitarianism ought to be the guiding principle here. In fact, I see utilitarianism itself as possible relative. So I'm not convinced Tony has quite made his point, even if I think I know what he is getting at.
I would rephrase his comments as "my religious rights are absolute, but how I act upon them is relative to society and the /possible/ damage that can be done to others."
But neither are First Amendment rights absolute. You don’t get to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theater, and you don’t get to post kiddie porn on the internet. Again, the good of the society trumps your individual rights.I think I agree.
That’s why Santorum’s views on contraception, for instance, are reckless. He may be personally appalled that men and women use contraceptives, and he can use his bully pulpit to promote those views. But to impose those personal views on the rest of us is the equivalent to Mitt Romney forcing us all to wear sacred undergarments, or Barack Obama making women wear burkas.I'm not certain where the leap in this comes from. Santorum acting upon his conscience is no different than the President authorizing partial-birth abortion. We elect people BASED on their personal views and how they will (or say/lie) enforce them. Many of us knew what we were getting when we elected Barack Obama, and in a way, most/all of us know what we will get if we elect Rick Santorum. At least we have that going for us. . . . . .
I would argue that Tony is operating out of an idealistic view of government when history ought to dictate the reality of government and the opinion and policies of individual people and how they act towards their constituents. Contrast Hitler with Barney. One preached utilitarianism from a TV screen and one was purple. ;-)
To impose those personal views upon people is simply how government works in the mind of a cynic, and dammit Jim, what is more recklessly American then that?
Tony Jones/ Rick Santorum
--Nick
Monday, February 27, 2012
Roger Olson on "Liberal Theology"
I'm a big fan of Olson, and this post gave me great pause as per usual. "Liberal" is, these days, generally used as a pejorative, intended for the use of indelicate dismission. It is no different than calling someone a "fundamentalist" because they believe in inerrancy.
Liberal is not a disagreement, but a hermeneutical lens.
"One of my biggest pet peeves is people throwing labels around when they don’t understand them. I teach at a seminary often accused by the ignorant of being “liberal” because it allows women to study for the ministry. I’ve been asked when I “became liberal” and started believing in women’s ordination and women as lead pastors. The first denomination to ordain women as pastors was the theologically conservative but socially progressive Free Methodist Church and it did that way back in the mid-19th century. (Quakers, or Friends as they prefer to be called) had women leaders before that but they didn’t exactly “ordain” anyone or have lead pastors in our modern sense.) I grew up in a very conservative denomination that ordained women. We had women pastors and evangelists. Both my birth mother and stepmother were licensed to preach.
--Nick
Liberal is not a disagreement, but a hermeneutical lens.
"One of my biggest pet peeves is people throwing labels around when they don’t understand them. I teach at a seminary often accused by the ignorant of being “liberal” because it allows women to study for the ministry. I’ve been asked when I “became liberal” and started believing in women’s ordination and women as lead pastors. The first denomination to ordain women as pastors was the theologically conservative but socially progressive Free Methodist Church and it did that way back in the mid-19th century. (Quakers, or Friends as they prefer to be called) had women leaders before that but they didn’t exactly “ordain” anyone or have lead pastors in our modern sense.) I grew up in a very conservative denomination that ordained women. We had women pastors and evangelists. Both my birth mother and stepmother were licensed to preach.
People tend to throw the label “liberal” around without regard to history. Most of the time it means little or nothing more than something they don’t like or agree with and perceive to be too progressive. When someone says a person or church or institution or book is “liberal” I have no idea what they mean until I press them for a definition. Usually they can’t give a real definition; they can only say something about their disagreement or dislike.
Looking up “liberal” in the dictionary doesn’t really help. Most ordinary dictionaries don’t include theology among their definitions. You can look up “liberal” in most dictionaries and be enlightened about politics and society and perhaps philosophy. But you are unlikely to find anything there about liberal theology. Besides, it is a mistake to think words have essences. There is no “essence” out there corresponding exactly with the sound “liberal.” The label “liberal” has a history theologically and we should stick to that as closely as possible while recognizing flexibility.
Once again, as before here, I want to suggest a helpful distinction. This time between “liberalism” as a movement and “liberalism” as an ethos. (And now I am restricting my comments to theology.) It is anachronistic to refer to anything as theologically liberal before Friedrich Schleiermacher, the early 19th century “father of liberal theology.” Schleiermacher was certainly influenced by previous and contemporary thinkers in philosophy and theology, but he almost single handedly created “liberal theology.” On this most historical theologians are agreed. (Before Schleiermacher there were “free thinkers” and deists and unitarians but not liberals per se.)
But even Schleiermacher did not found a movement. In many ways he serves as the paradigm of a liberal ethos in Christian theology. But that ethos only began to breathe with him; even Schleiermacher was not consistently liberal. Compared to many later movement liberals such as Adolf Harnack he would be considered relatively conservative insofar as he strove to hold onto as much of Christian tradition as he thought possible in the modern world.
So, the liberal ethos pre-dates the rise of the Christian liberal theological movement that I call “classical Protestant liberalism.” The latter appeared first with German Lutheran theologian Albrecht Ritschl and his followers in the later 19th century. Ritschl founded a movement. His followers came to be called “Ritschlians.” Classical Protestant liberal theology is tied to the METHOD of the Rischlians (not necessarily to all of their conclusions). The leading Ritschlians were Harnack and Willhelm Herrmann. There were, of course, many others. They disagreed among themselves about many things, but they agreed on theology’s basic method which followed that of Schleiermacher but in a somewhat altered way.
After WW1 and the existentialist revolution in philosophy and theology in Europe classical liberal theology struggled as a movement. It didn’t exactly die out, but it underwent some significant changes so that historical theologians tend to call its mid-20th century heirs “neo-liberals” or “chastened liberals.” The main difference was the recognition of a tragic dimension to human existence and history that was lacking in the pre-WW1 liberals.
The liberal theological movement has had its ups and downs and perhaps doesn’t really exist anymore although I have met and read people who seem to agree with it to a large extent. But, again, I would tend to call them liberal in the “ethos” sense. Some have come along and tried to breathe new life into the liberal community to restart the old liberal theological movement but with little success. There are many freelance liberal theologians running around, but I look in vain for an actual movement that includes all or even most of them.
So what is the liberal theological ethos started by Schleiermacher that defines theological liberalism (including the Ritschlian movement and the neo-liberalism of its post-WW1 descendents)? And where do we find it today? Who are its contemporary spokespersons?
Schleiermacher introduced into the stream of Christian theology a “Copernican revolution” in theological method that regarded it as necessary to adjust traditional Christianity to the culture of the Enlightenment–what we call “modernity.” To be sure, Schleiermacher did NOT do this uncritically. However, he clearly felt it necessary to rescue Christianity from the “acids of modernity” by redefining Christianity’s (and religion’s) “essence” so that it did not and perhaps could not conflict with the “best” of modern thought. He redefined Christianity as PRIMARILY about human experience. That is, as he put it, doctrines are nothing more than attempts to bring human experiences of God (God-consciousness) to speech. Schleiermacher placed universal God-consciousness at the center of religion and Christ’s God-consciousness communicated to the church at the center of Christianity. All doctrines and all teachings of Scripture became revisable in the light of human God-consciousness.
What Schleiermacher accomplished was to separate religion (including Christianity) from the realm of “facts” discoverable by science and philosophy. He rescued religion and Christianity from the acids of modernity by reducing them and restricting them to an entirely different realm. Also, rather than objective divine revelation standing at the center or bottom of the theological enterprise, human experience was placed there. This was Schleiermacher’s “Copernican revolution” in theology. All liberal theology (whether by ethos or tied specifically to a liberal theological movement such as Ritschlianism) is defined by that move first made by Schleiermacher.
Ritschl borrowed heavily from the philosopher Immanuel Kant to distinguish between two types of propositions–facts (which belong to the sciences) and values (which belong to religion). Religion, including Christianity, has to do with the way things ought to be (the Kingdom of God) and not with the way things are. If Ritschl was right, religion (rightly understood) and modern philosophy and science (kept where they belong) cannot conflict.
Harnack is the paradigm of the classical liberal Protestant theologian. He reduced Christianity to a minimal ethical core–it’s true “essence”–which cannot be undermined by science or philosophy.
The liberal theologians did not throw out belief in the Trinity or the deity and humanity of Jesus Christ, etc. They simply reduced their importance (they are not of the essence) and reinterpreted them non-metaphysically.
The leading Ritschlian theologian in America (at the same time as Harnack in Germany) was Henry Churchill King, president of Oberlin College. His book Reconstruction in Theology was published at the same time as Harnack’s What Is Christianity? (1901) King’s “reconstruction” of Christianity theology was done under that influence (viz., Ritschl). The leading Ritschlian public figure was Harry Emerson Fosdick, Jr., pastor of Riverside Church in New York City and author of numerous books of liberal theology. Fosdick’s countenance graced the cover of Time magazine twice in the 1920s. He was widely considered THE leading spokesman for liberal theology in America.
After WW1 in Europe and after WW2 in America theological liberalism underwent some changes. The main one was the death of its historical optimism and adoption of a more realistic sense of human existence and history (largely under the influence of Reinhold Niebuhr). But it retained its basic attitude toward modernity as an authority for theology’s critical and constructive tasks. (This was often more implicit than explicit.)
Gradually the liberal theological movement associated with Ritschl and his followers died out. But the ethos it embodied remained–entering into the warp and woof of mainline Protestant life and thought. Today it is represented by public intellectuals such as Marcus Borg and John Shelby Spong. Several theologians are attempting to breathe new life into it. Among them are Gary Dorrien (perhaps THE leading scholar of liberal theology especially in America), Peter Hodgson, Donald Miller (of USC, not the author of Blue Like Jazz), and John Cobb.
So what are the usual, if not universal, hallmarks of true liberal theology or family resemblances among true liberal theologians? First, here are books you MUST read if you want to discuss liberal theology intelligently. (Read at least one of these.) Alan P. F. Sell, Theology in Turmoil, William R. Hutchison, The Modernist Impulse in American Protestantism, Kenneth Cauthen, The Impact of American Religious Liberalism, Gary Dorrien, The Making of American Liberal Theology (3 volumes), Peter Hodgson, Liberal Theology: A Radical Vision, John Cobb, Progressive Christians Speak, and Donald E. Miller, The Case for Liberal Christianity.
So what do all these people from Schleiermacher to Dorrien have in common? I think the liberal theological ethos is best expressed in a nutshell by liberal theologian Delwin Brown (a convert to liberal theology from evangelicalism) in his dialogue with Clark Pinnock in Theological Crossfire: An Evangelical/Liberal Dialogue. There Brown asks THE CRUCIAL QUESTION of modern theology: “When the consensus of the best contemporary minds differs markedly from the most precious teachings of the past, which do we follow? To which do we give primary allegiance, the past or the present?” Brown rightly gives the evangelical answer: “We ought to listen to the hypotheses of the present and take from them what we can, but ultimately the truth has been given to us in the past, particularly in Jesus, and the acceptance of that is our ultimate obligation. Everything the contemporary world might say must be judged by its conformity to biblical revelation.” (Of course evangelicals differ among ourselves about WHAT biblical revelation says, but all evangelicals agree that the revelation of God given in Jesus and the biblical message takes precedence over the best of modern thought WHEN THERE IS AN UNAVOIDABLE CONFLICT between them.)
Then, Brown speaks for all liberal theologians when he gives the liberal answer to the crucial question: “Liberalism at its best is more likely to say, ‘We certainly ought to honor the richness of the Christian past and appreciate the vast contribution it makes to our lives, but finally we must live by our best modern conclusions. The modern consensus should not be absolutized; it, too, is always subect to criticism and further revision. But our commitment, however tentative and self-critically maintained, must be to the careful judgments of the present age, even if they differ radically from the dictates of the past.” (p. 23)
(Now, a good illustration of the difference between fundamentalism and evangelicalism can be given in an anecdote about the Pinnock-Brown dialogue in this book. Some years ago I used the book as a textbook in an elective class. One of the students, a theology major, objected strenuously to having to read it. He argued vehemently that dialogue between liberals such as Brown and evangelicals has no value and that Pinnock’s attempt at it proves he is not a true evangelical. I would consider that an expression of a fundamentalist as opposed to an evangelical attitude.)
Pinnock well expresses ALL evangelicals’ response to Brown, this in the context of a disagreement about eschatology in which Brown expressed skepticism about belief in a final triumph of good over evil. Pinnock to Brown: “Here we are back to where we started in the book, back to the difference between us concerning the nature of the authority of the Bible. … You allow the Bible a functional but not a cognitive authority; that is, you will not bow to the content of Scripture but accept it only as a power that authors your life in some (to me) vague way. This means in the present case that you are not able to rest your hope on the revealed promises of God concerning eternal life in Christ beyond death. Usually I appreciate your modesty in the way you do theology, but when it comes down to your not affirming clear promises of God in the gospel, the modesty is being taken too far. Lacking guidance from the Scriptures and as if to underline my anxiety, you are forced to resolve the issue rationally and then cannot do so. Thus is the problem of liberal theology highlighted.” (p. 249)
In a nutshell, then, the liberal theological ethos accords to “the best of modern thought” the weight of authority in theology alongside or stronger than biblical revelation (and certainly than tradition). This is what Yale historical theologian Claude Welch meant when he wrote that liberal theology is “maximal acknowledgement of the claims of modernity.”
What is ironic is that Pinnock has been labeled “liberal” in spite of his strong rejection of real liberal theology in this and many of his writings. Those who called Pinnock a liberal simply revealed themselves as neo-fundamentalists (who often if not usually use “liberal” as an epithet for anyone and anything they think deviates from their version of “the received evangelical tradition.”)
There are, of course, other family resemblances among theological liberals such as a tendency to emphasize the immanence of God over God’s transcendence, skepticism about anything supernatural or miraculous (if not rejection of those categories entirely), out-and-out, open universalism (a true denial of hell as opposed to a hope for eventual ultimate reconciliation), an emptying of the “dogma” category and corresponding reduction of all Christian beliefs to the opinion category.
Someone like Pinnock is called a fundamentalist by those on the “left” and a liberal by those on the “right.” These are fallacious and invalid uses of these labels. They have NOTHING to do with history. Theological labels should not be torn away from history and used in such an informal manner as epithets to insult or marginalize people. That is why I have written this post and I hope it helps people who want to use labels with integrity to do so. I realize, of course, that many people don’t care about that; they just want to demean other people they don’t like by slapping negative labels on them."
Olson and Liberal Theology--Nick
Sunday, February 26, 2012
Penn Jillette on "Why Tolerance is Condescending"
Penn is often times a breathe of fresh air, though I (obviously) disagree with him. Worth checking out the video below.
Penn & Tolerance
Penn & Tolerance
Physical senses as objective lens?
1) A physical reality that his perception does not change. If you look at a tree, then turn away, the tree is still there.
But what if people do not see the tree? What if you don't see the tree, but only think you do?
I'm not convinced that Penn's claims are objective only in the sense that he pits his own feelings about what is objective (his senses) against what other people "feel" (their mind). It seems to be a false equivocation and by implication, I'm not certain his love for objective truth is all that objective. Though I share his belief in that objective truth exists, I think other criteria is better attested than my sensory perception.
If his senses are what define objectivity (which I find odd given that his senses can only really apply to himself given that they are HIS senses, which seems to make his claims of objectivity entirely subjective), then it makes sense if only within the realm of his own mind that he appears to be objective. After all, within his own sensory perspective, everything seems to be objective.
2) "I can't prove it but I've got a feeling in my heart. . . "
First, I'm not convinced that an emotional appeal to such a thing is even necessary given other criteria for God's existence.
Second, I'm not certain, given Penn's criteria, that he would even be able to critique such a view in the first place.
Third, there is a difference between God and The Beatles, even if John Lennon was close to his original claim. Of course I don't even like The Beatles, so this is irrelevant.
Fourth, there is also a difference between murder and benevolent belief in a deity. Unless that deity tells you to kill Sharon Tate, then ehh, maybe she had it coming.
3) His honesty
I appreciate his commends about honesty. It is genuinely refreshing. I find Penn to be a dude I'd love to kick back and smoke something with. Being "busted on our bullshit" is a necessity, and I expect the same here if I am incorrect.
So, bravo sir. I love reflection and I expect to get along very well with Penn in the new world.
4) Religious Tolerance and My left Foot
Here, I entirely agree with Penn on religious tolerance. I tend to get along with people who listen to what I have to say, mull it over for a bit, and come back with a damn good comment that I don't have an answer for.
I love that. Being nice to me is all well and good (and it helps get me into a nicer mood to discuss), but overall I think Penn is entirely correct in his comments here. I get along with liberal Christians as people, but I prefer to be discussed with instead of dismissed as "my own truth or opinion." Which, of course, is indeed my own opinion.
Thanks Penn. You've made another fan.
--Nick
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