1. What important topic do you think our Christian generation (20s) has to deal with the most? 'Why' must we deal with this issue?
I'm inclined to agree with many of my fellow contributors on their selected topics. These are marvelously difficult topics to resolve, but for me its now become interesting to step back and think of another issue. One that covers Scripture, tradition, systematics and the character of God.
Simply put, we need to talk about hell. Mainly because this effects how we evangelize, how we talk about God and even how we consider where we all fall within the contours of Orthodox Christian faith.
Rob Bell seemed to expose a rift within evangelicalism, mainly that we tend to avoid the topic. So, like many topics, talking about it is a plus in of itself. However, it does beg the question what falls within Orthodoxy.
Why do we need to talk about hell? Because it exists and if what Bell went through is any indication of evangelicalism, things won't get any easier for ideas to be exegetes and systematized. Best to talk now before the hammer comes down.
2. In what (positive or negative) ways has our generation already engaged with this issue?
Rob Bell.
Okay, you probably want a little more. Positively, we've begun a major shift in discussion. Universalism is now begin given a fairer treatment due to various works (1) and evangelicals are now needing to rethink hell. On another front, you have annihilationism being reconsidered. The names behind the theology are impressive (2) and they have experiences a resurgence, especially in conservative circles. This is a positive development as their case is made through exegesis, thus offering biblical concepts to a curious audience.
Negatively, you have entire denominations reaffirming the traditional view of hell (Southern Baptist Convention), therefore shutting off dialogue. From a personal point of view, I've experienced some pretty absurd private messages on the topic, as have close friends of mine. Tradition is sometimes blindly enforced without taking into account exegesis.
However, as a side note, I think a negative example would be that some would jump ship at the slightest new idea without consideration for the evidence. Our generation needs to further weigh the evidence before jumping ship.
3. What can we do to improve our relationship with addressing this issue? Or can things be improved?
Things have already improved. The fact that some are talking and engaging with their brothers and sisters is indicative that goods things may come from this. The debate has also become mainstream(3). No matter what some people think or say, the dialogue is happening. It is general irenic but that has never stopped exceptions from occurring.
This offers the world a new image of evangelicalism. We are willing to rethink and provide evidence for our belief systems. We are willing to be wrong and to simply pursue truth, where ever this truth leads us.
The debate within evangelicalism is a bit more difficult to measure, especially since it is new. But, I have high hopes that the discussion will rage onwards and upwards. In a good way.
Nick Ahern is probably the reason you are reading this. He is a Biola grad, a future Fuller Seminary MA Student and engaged to marry the lovely Allison Quient. You can find him on Twitter.
Footnotes:
1. Hellbound directed by Kevin Miller. For literature, Gregory Macdonald (Robin Parry) released the 2nd Edition of the Evangelical Universalist and David Congdon is releasing his systematic take on the idea in the next few years, The God That Saves: A Dogmatic Sketch.
2. Richard Bauckham, E. Earle Ellis, I. Howard Marshall, Glenn Peoples, Gregory Boyd. See also ReThinking Hell.
3. Time Magazine, circa 2011.
Showing posts with label Debate. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Debate. Show all posts
Saturday, June 22, 2013
Saturday, March 9, 2013
A Debate on Christianity and it's Relationship with the LGBT population
Saturday, October 20, 2012
Three Views on Hell: Universalism
INTRODUCTION
In early 2000, thanks to my studies affirming trinitarian theism, I came to expect God to persist in acting toward saving all sinners from sin. I began searching the scriptures to see if such things could be true; and as I studied the details and contexts more thoroughly, I learned to my surprise that many sets of scripture commonly quoted against Christian universalism featured strong evidence in favor of it instead! Here are three examples.
PAYING JUSTICE (2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10)
A) Paul references Isaiah 2:10,21 “from/before the terror of JEHOVAH and the splendor of His majesty”. But this ruination, in the whole prophecy of chapters 2-5, eventually shows the unrighteous being cleaned by fire, and reconciling with the righteous. And the prophecy reveals that the scope of this salvation will be total.
B) Different bibles will say the sinners “pay the penalty” or “incur the punishment”. But literally verse 9 reads that they shall come to “pay the justice”, using a cognate for positively valuing something. And Paul’s citation from Isaiah shows sinners eventually coming to value Jehovah’s justice, paying true homage.
C) Paul declares that sinners shall be wholly destroyed. But despite the strength of the compound verb, Paul uses the same word in 1 Cor 5:5 to describe the punishment of a man he expects to be saved, after this punishment, in the same day of Jehovah that Paul is speaking of here in 2 Thessalonians.
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
A) First, this incident is based around the problem of a man previously exorcised by Jesus (Matthew 9:32-34 and notice the flashforward topical connection there) who must be exorcised again because, by his own fault, his latter state is worse than his first. Jesus warns that some people will be the same in the day of judgment (and 2 Peter 2:20 uses the exact same phrase to talk of teachers who abuse the people). But such a state was not beyond Jesus’ salvation--or there wouldn’t have been a controversy at all!
B) The teachers opposing Jesus’ salvation of this man are contradicting their own principles in order call such a salvation the work of the devil and not of God. (Matt 12:22-37)
C) When Jesus warns these teachers about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, He emphasizes even more strongly (Mark 3:28) that every sin whatever will be forgiven men. Is our sin superior to God’s grace?--or does God’s grace hyper-exceed our sins?
THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS (MATT 25:31-46)
A) In Greek the ones being punished are baby-goats. Since they are specifically included among the flock of Christ (v.32), they are literally the least of Christ’s flock.
B) They will be hungry, thirsty, outside, dirty, imprisoned and sick now. (Rev 22:14-17) This is their punishment for refusing to cooperate with Christ in helping to save such people.
C) The narrative and thematic contexts of this final judgment declaration, critique my interpretations of any other judgment statements in the scriptures: including how I should interpret what ‘eonian’ and ‘kolasis’ mean here for the baby-goats. Do the Good Shepherd and His mature flock start acting like baby-goats to the baby-goats now? Or shall He and they continue seeking to save the least of His flock?--inviting them to slake their thirst and wash clean in the water of life flowing out of the never-closed gates, inviting them in to eat of the tree of life and be healed, freeing them from their imprisonment?
CONCLUSION
It’s fairly easy to make a positive argument from the three sets of St. Paul’s testimony most commonly appealed to by universalists: Philippians 2:10-11 in context of Isaiah 45:23 (indicating the utter scope and final result of post-mortem salvation); 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 + vv.54-58 in context of Isaiah 25 and Hosea chapters 13-14 (indicating the utter scope and persistence of post-mortem salvation); and a deduction from the implications of Colossians 1:16-22 (indicating the utter scope of God’s action in reconciliation) plus Romans 5:6-11 (indicating the utter assurance of eventual salvation for those whom God acts to reconcile).
But when evidence against God’s salvation of all sinners from sin turned out to be for it? That really impressed me.
AUTHOR
Jason Pratt is a guest author for the Evangelical Universalist forum. His epic fantasy novel CRY OF JUSTICE won the 2008 retailer poll for Novel of the Year from the Christian Small Publishers Association.
OTHER ESSAYS
Eternal Conscious Torment
Annihilationism
CRITICAL RESPONSE
Annihilationism
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES
Gregory MacDonald, "The Evangelical Universalist."
Thomas Talbott, "The Inescapable Love of God."
The Evangelical Universalist Forum
In early 2000, thanks to my studies affirming trinitarian theism, I came to expect God to persist in acting toward saving all sinners from sin. I began searching the scriptures to see if such things could be true; and as I studied the details and contexts more thoroughly, I learned to my surprise that many sets of scripture commonly quoted against Christian universalism featured strong evidence in favor of it instead! Here are three examples.
PAYING JUSTICE (2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10)
A) Paul references Isaiah 2:10,21 “from/before the terror of JEHOVAH and the splendor of His majesty”. But this ruination, in the whole prophecy of chapters 2-5, eventually shows the unrighteous being cleaned by fire, and reconciling with the righteous. And the prophecy reveals that the scope of this salvation will be total.
B) Different bibles will say the sinners “pay the penalty” or “incur the punishment”. But literally verse 9 reads that they shall come to “pay the justice”, using a cognate for positively valuing something. And Paul’s citation from Isaiah shows sinners eventually coming to value Jehovah’s justice, paying true homage.
C) Paul declares that sinners shall be wholly destroyed. But despite the strength of the compound verb, Paul uses the same word in 1 Cor 5:5 to describe the punishment of a man he expects to be saved, after this punishment, in the same day of Jehovah that Paul is speaking of here in 2 Thessalonians.
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
A) First, this incident is based around the problem of a man previously exorcised by Jesus (Matthew 9:32-34 and notice the flashforward topical connection there) who must be exorcised again because, by his own fault, his latter state is worse than his first. Jesus warns that some people will be the same in the day of judgment (and 2 Peter 2:20 uses the exact same phrase to talk of teachers who abuse the people). But such a state was not beyond Jesus’ salvation--or there wouldn’t have been a controversy at all!
B) The teachers opposing Jesus’ salvation of this man are contradicting their own principles in order call such a salvation the work of the devil and not of God. (Matt 12:22-37)
C) When Jesus warns these teachers about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, He emphasizes even more strongly (Mark 3:28) that every sin whatever will be forgiven men. Is our sin superior to God’s grace?--or does God’s grace hyper-exceed our sins?
THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS (MATT 25:31-46)
A) In Greek the ones being punished are baby-goats. Since they are specifically included among the flock of Christ (v.32), they are literally the least of Christ’s flock.
B) They will be hungry, thirsty, outside, dirty, imprisoned and sick now. (Rev 22:14-17) This is their punishment for refusing to cooperate with Christ in helping to save such people.
C) The narrative and thematic contexts of this final judgment declaration, critique my interpretations of any other judgment statements in the scriptures: including how I should interpret what ‘eonian’ and ‘kolasis’ mean here for the baby-goats. Do the Good Shepherd and His mature flock start acting like baby-goats to the baby-goats now? Or shall He and they continue seeking to save the least of His flock?--inviting them to slake their thirst and wash clean in the water of life flowing out of the never-closed gates, inviting them in to eat of the tree of life and be healed, freeing them from their imprisonment?
CONCLUSION
It’s fairly easy to make a positive argument from the three sets of St. Paul’s testimony most commonly appealed to by universalists: Philippians 2:10-11 in context of Isaiah 45:23 (indicating the utter scope and final result of post-mortem salvation); 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 + vv.54-58 in context of Isaiah 25 and Hosea chapters 13-14 (indicating the utter scope and persistence of post-mortem salvation); and a deduction from the implications of Colossians 1:16-22 (indicating the utter scope of God’s action in reconciliation) plus Romans 5:6-11 (indicating the utter assurance of eventual salvation for those whom God acts to reconcile).
But when evidence against God’s salvation of all sinners from sin turned out to be for it? That really impressed me.
AUTHOR
Jason Pratt is a guest author for the Evangelical Universalist forum. His epic fantasy novel CRY OF JUSTICE won the 2008 retailer poll for Novel of the Year from the Christian Small Publishers Association.
OTHER ESSAYS
Eternal Conscious Torment
Annihilationism
CRITICAL RESPONSE
Annihilationism
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES
Gregory MacDonald, "The Evangelical Universalist."
Thomas Talbott, "The Inescapable Love of God."
The Evangelical Universalist Forum
Three Views on Hell: Eternal Conscious Torment
INTRODUCTION
I don’t believe that Hell will have literal fire. I side with the Eastern Orthodox Church on this issue. Hell is a place where either separation from God or the power of his presence is punishment. The way to understand biblical passages on hellfire is to understand them in a metaphorical manner (given that there are other instances of fire where literal fire is not meant [Exodus 15:7, Isaiah 42:25, Zephaniah 1:18, John 15:6, 10:26-30, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15]).
A REAL HELL
A). The Scriptures say eternal conscious punishment is real, and that it is a place you really don’t want to be in. This is the data supporting hell as a real place: Numbers 16:30, Matthew 3:12, 5:22, 29-30, 8:12, 13:41-42, 50, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46, Jude 7 Revelation 14:9-11, 20:15, 21:8 and Luke 16:19-31. Luke 16:19-31 is perhaps the most detailed account of hell. It is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus’s teaching here is that all men have enough knowledge accessible (the Law and the Prophet) to be held accountable for their eternal residence. Interestingly enough, the rich man is in Hades is conscious, and is holding conversation (contrary to what we might think happens when we are in excruciating pain) with Abraham, who is in paradise.
ETERNAL DESTRUCTION
A) Annihilationism doesn’t make sense of the biblical data or seem consistent with our knowledge of the character of God. Verses used to support annihilationism such as Philippians 3:19 and 2 Peter 2:7 don’t refer to the cessation of existence, but rather the wasting of a thing (the same word is used in Matthew 26:8 but refers not to the cessation of existence). 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 are also used in support, but it seems the conclusion must be presupposed to gather that Paul is referring to the ceasing of existence. Aside from the biblical data, annihilationists must show they have a full understanding of the severity of sin. Annihilationists believe that the soul ceases to exist. But how do we really know that annihilatoinism will be a punishment that fits the crime? It seems that very evil men like Hitler and Stalin will get off the hook here, and perhaps men who were unrepentant, but not sinful to such an extreme (perhaps like Ghandi) would be given a punishment they didn’t deserve. This one-size-fits-all punishment also seems to deny Paul’s words that God will judge “each man according to his deeds” (Romans 2:6).
NO SECOND CHANCES
A) Universalism has, I think, the greatest challenge of the three views. It faces a large task to reconcile the biblical data on eternal punishment. It faces the challenge of the Gospel, in the sense that ‘If all will be saved, why not just do what I want because even though the punishment will hurt, it will stop eventually and I’ll be in bliss?’ I think universalists are mistaken on the difference between retribution and reconciliation.
B) It is often that universalists want to show verses to illustrate God’s reconciliation with his people (both in the OT and NT). However, this is to miss the point: reconciliation is with God’s people. These people are already repentant; the lost are unrepentant and not considered part of God’s people. Last, universalism faces the difficulty of human freedom. If it is true that humans are free, and also true that some humans reject God on sufficient knowledge (Romans 1), then they are making a free, informed decision about what they think of their Creator. And if the mind and heart has rejected God, then it will already have a perverse view of who God is. The universalist must show enough support that God’s presence would be enough for people to change their minds. And if Satan and his demons can continue in their rebellion, having a better-than-human knowledge of who God is, then I don’t see why humans might be any different once we see more fully.
CONCLUSION
For these reasons, I believe eternal conscious punishment is the best view that fits with the biblical data both explicitly and implicitly (meaning, compatibility with our biblical knowledge of the character of God).
AUTHOR
T. Kurt Jaros is the Founder of Real Clear Apologetics and a Master’s student at King’s College London studying Systematic Theology
OTHER ESSAYS
Annihilationism
Universalism
CRITICAL RESPONSE
Annihilationism
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christian_theology#Concept_of_Hell
Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, “Hell,” (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000), pgs. 1148-1153.
Murray Vasser, http://murrayvasser.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/biblical-view-of-hell.html
I don’t believe that Hell will have literal fire. I side with the Eastern Orthodox Church on this issue. Hell is a place where either separation from God or the power of his presence is punishment. The way to understand biblical passages on hellfire is to understand them in a metaphorical manner (given that there are other instances of fire where literal fire is not meant [Exodus 15:7, Isaiah 42:25, Zephaniah 1:18, John 15:6, 10:26-30, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15]).
A REAL HELL
A). The Scriptures say eternal conscious punishment is real, and that it is a place you really don’t want to be in. This is the data supporting hell as a real place: Numbers 16:30, Matthew 3:12, 5:22, 29-30, 8:12, 13:41-42, 50, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46, Jude 7 Revelation 14:9-11, 20:15, 21:8 and Luke 16:19-31. Luke 16:19-31 is perhaps the most detailed account of hell. It is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus’s teaching here is that all men have enough knowledge accessible (the Law and the Prophet) to be held accountable for their eternal residence. Interestingly enough, the rich man is in Hades is conscious, and is holding conversation (contrary to what we might think happens when we are in excruciating pain) with Abraham, who is in paradise.
ETERNAL DESTRUCTION
A) Annihilationism doesn’t make sense of the biblical data or seem consistent with our knowledge of the character of God. Verses used to support annihilationism such as Philippians 3:19 and 2 Peter 2:7 don’t refer to the cessation of existence, but rather the wasting of a thing (the same word is used in Matthew 26:8 but refers not to the cessation of existence). 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 are also used in support, but it seems the conclusion must be presupposed to gather that Paul is referring to the ceasing of existence. Aside from the biblical data, annihilationists must show they have a full understanding of the severity of sin. Annihilationists believe that the soul ceases to exist. But how do we really know that annihilatoinism will be a punishment that fits the crime? It seems that very evil men like Hitler and Stalin will get off the hook here, and perhaps men who were unrepentant, but not sinful to such an extreme (perhaps like Ghandi) would be given a punishment they didn’t deserve. This one-size-fits-all punishment also seems to deny Paul’s words that God will judge “each man according to his deeds” (Romans 2:6).
NO SECOND CHANCES
A) Universalism has, I think, the greatest challenge of the three views. It faces a large task to reconcile the biblical data on eternal punishment. It faces the challenge of the Gospel, in the sense that ‘If all will be saved, why not just do what I want because even though the punishment will hurt, it will stop eventually and I’ll be in bliss?’ I think universalists are mistaken on the difference between retribution and reconciliation.
B) It is often that universalists want to show verses to illustrate God’s reconciliation with his people (both in the OT and NT). However, this is to miss the point: reconciliation is with God’s people. These people are already repentant; the lost are unrepentant and not considered part of God’s people. Last, universalism faces the difficulty of human freedom. If it is true that humans are free, and also true that some humans reject God on sufficient knowledge (Romans 1), then they are making a free, informed decision about what they think of their Creator. And if the mind and heart has rejected God, then it will already have a perverse view of who God is. The universalist must show enough support that God’s presence would be enough for people to change their minds. And if Satan and his demons can continue in their rebellion, having a better-than-human knowledge of who God is, then I don’t see why humans might be any different once we see more fully.
CONCLUSION
For these reasons, I believe eternal conscious punishment is the best view that fits with the biblical data both explicitly and implicitly (meaning, compatibility with our biblical knowledge of the character of God).
AUTHOR
T. Kurt Jaros is the Founder of Real Clear Apologetics and a Master’s student at King’s College London studying Systematic Theology
OTHER ESSAYS
Annihilationism
Universalism
CRITICAL RESPONSE
Annihilationism
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christian_theology#Concept_of_Hell
Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, “Hell,” (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000), pgs. 1148-1153.
Murray Vasser, http://murrayvasser.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/biblical-view-of-hell.html
Wednesday, March 7, 2012
Atheism & "The God Wars"
This was enlightening. Several atheists sat down and discussed various differing opinions about their aversion/respect towards religion. Some even suggested very non-mainstream atheist approaches that backfired on them.
--Nick
"Alain De Botton is the most recent and, consequently, the most shocked victim. He has just produced a book, Religion for Atheists: a Non-Believer's Guide to the Uses of Religion, mildly suggesting that atheists like himself have much to learn from religion and that, in fact, religion is too important to be left to believers. He has also proposed an atheists' temple, a place where non-believers can partake of the consolations of silence and meditation.
This has been enough to bring the full force of a neo-atheist fatwa crashing down on his head. The temple idea in particular made them reach for their best books of curses.
“I am rolling my eyes so hard that it hurts," wrote the American biologist and neo-atheist blogger P Z Myers. "You may take a moment to retch. I hope you have buckets handy." Myers has a vivid but limited prose palette.
There have been threats of violence [as well]. . ."To continue, NewStatesman article
--Nick
Tuesday, March 6, 2012
Roger Olson, "You might be an Arminian if. . . "
Olson drops some knowledge.
To continue, Olson and Arminianism
--Nick
"So, the approach I’ll take is threefold. First, characteristics I think are minimally necessary to qualify as an Arminian. This is my “generous Arminianism” definition. Second, additional characteristics I think are very valuable for an Arminian to possess. Third, characteristics that I think disqualify a person from being considered an Arminian.
Before launching into it, however, I should reveal how I go about making these decisions. First, I study the history of Arminianism beginning with Arminius himself and his immediate followers, the first generation Remonstrants (up through the 1620s when all the Remonstrants seemed to be faithful to Arminius’ own teachings). Second, I consider what scholars, theologians, leading ministers who regard themselves as Arminians believe. Third, I look at what scholars who are not Arminians say about it. My “anchor” tends to be Arminius himself."
To continue, Olson and Arminianism
--Nick
Monday, March 5, 2012
Why Satan is more powerful than God: a brief (and hopefully) thoughtful critique
First, the (kinda cool) image:
I will be responding to each line. First, a summation.
There are numerous assumptions either hidden or shown via this picture. The classic "problem of evil," which cannot be dismissed these days, seems to be one such assumption. This is not a negation of the problem of evil, nor is it in anyway praising it. I realize and have struggled with the problem of evil in the past, though mostly due to not having a developed theodicy and simply not knowing how to respond to objections.
But, the issue is not about heaven or hell, or Satan being more powerful or intelligent. It seems to be far more indicative about the nature of God, and how this person sees him.
Line one:
I'm not certain I disagree. However, the verses cited in support do not necessarily support an eternal conscious existence. The verse cited in Romans specifically mentions death, not hell. Revelation is an ambiguous passage that simply states that there are people outside the gates -- gates that never shut. I'm currently reading a book by Brad Jersak called "Her Gates Never Shut" that explores the concept of Revelation and the 'gates that never shut.' More to come.
This does not necessarily support the idea of "hell" as "hell" or hades, is thrown into the lake of fire earlier in chapter 20. Which leaves it open for a possible discussion as to what happens. Many would disagree, but I think there is plenty of room for interpretation.
Line two:
There are MANY other verses that support the idea of God desiring/willing that all men would be saved. Arminians wouldn't disagree, nor would Calvinists (though they have a different take on the phrase "all men.")
I Timothy 2:4 speaks of God's desire to save all men/ Romans 11:32 speaks of having mercy upon all/ Lamentations 3:22 & 3:31-33 speak about God not rejecting forever and being bountiful in love/ The (almost annoying) cliche verse John 3:16.
I'm not certain much more needs to be said. Just that God's love is far greater than one verse. I'm also not convinced that this a secondary goal or desire of his, and indeed I would question the assumption that God's primary goal is to glorify himself. But that is a conversation for another time between friends (hopefully) over alcohol.
Line three:
Wikipedia is not a necessarily valid source of information. I prefer redditt. There are many books written about Biblical prophecy, and simply reading them for yourself is best.
In short, this line ought to be dismissed until actual evidence is offered.
Line four:
I would argue that there are some great reasons (somewhat controversial reasons) that support this claim. But, sure, I don't disagree about what Christ's death accomplished. I prefer the classical view of the atonement versus Penal Substitution, but I'm not interested in dying on any particular hills this evening.
Line five:
I'm not certain Luke 13 is necessarily a parable or not. Instead, it seems that again Jesus is drawing a specific parallel between the people who claimed his name and did not act according to his teachings and the people who acted in accordance with Christ. In fact, I think verse 30 (which was not cited) sums up the entire thrust of the section:
"Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
See the story of Jacob and Esau, as one the lesser will rule the former. And yet they were reconciled at a later time.
This fits perfectly with the parable about the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. It does not seem to speak specifically about eschatological judgment, or even "hell", but of right action inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is, of course, based on the brief memory of an F.F. Bruce commentary on the NT where I think he mentioned something along those lines. I could be mistaken, but it seems to make some sort of sense right now. If shown wrong, I'll re-write. We are very quick to jump upon any teaching about 'hell', but we're also very quick to miss the simplicity of many parables. I think this is a classic example.
So, indeed, v30 of Luke's gospel doesn't necessarily explain eschatological judgment, but provides us with what Christ preached about how we are to act now in accordance with his teachings. Reversalism seems to be the main thrust of the passage, and is amply supported by multiple other Scriptures.
Line six:
I think all Christians would dispute this. My analysis is very brief and simplistic, and I attempt no caricature.
Calvinists would say that God chose specific people in accordance with his purpose and for his glory. This includes only the elect. They would say that God only intended to save the remnant, and thus this satisfies his plan of which the elect are saved.
See John Piper, Wayne Grudem and Gordon Clark.
Arminians would affirm that God loves everyone, but allows for human freedom and rejection. God does accomplish his plans, but human freedom trumps His ultimate desire for the salvation of all men. His plan to save all according to his foreknowledge, and the fact that all will eventually know of God, is complete. That some do not go to heaven is on the shoulders of those that refuse the free gift of grace, but God's plan on offering salvation is complete.
See Roger Olson, Jacob Arminius, Howard Marshall and Thomas Oden.
Universalists (specifically Christian and exclusively through Jesus) affirm that God accomplishes his entire will, and that He factored human freedom into his sovereign will, or that through the unlimited election of all souls in compliance with the 4 other points of Calvinism, all shall be saved. This concludes the simple fact that He will save everyone in the end.
I think this option has a lot more weight than previously thought.
See Thomas Talbott, George MacDonald and Robin Parry.
All of the three systems triumphs over Satan, as Satan is genuinely defeated in the end -- either through imprisonment, ultimate death or reconciliation. The elect is saved. All of humanity is without excuse to reject God. All of humanity, regardless of Satan's attempts, will be saved.
Either way, the question is answered and the assertion is ultimately insufficient in it's overall critique.
--Nick
For a different and more Reformed perspective, check out this link from my friend Brandon:
http://www.brandonmelton.com/?p=1737
Saturday, March 3, 2012
Jim Wallis; "God is personal, never private"
"God is personal, but never private." --Wallis
For an interesting and informative debate, check out Jim Wallis and Al Mohler on the topic of social justice.
For the first half, Mohler seemed like he was going to win by default of Wallis' storytelling. But, Wallis came through in the Q&A and effectively won. Mohler got flustered and emotional, completely eroding much of his case. Though Wallis wasn't strong from the beginning, he pulled ahead.
Wallis 1, Mohler 0.
But give it a listen for yourself. Enjoy.
Wallis/Mohler
--Nick
For an interesting and informative debate, check out Jim Wallis and Al Mohler on the topic of social justice.
For the first half, Mohler seemed like he was going to win by default of Wallis' storytelling. But, Wallis came through in the Q&A and effectively won. Mohler got flustered and emotional, completely eroding much of his case. Though Wallis wasn't strong from the beginning, he pulled ahead.
Wallis 1, Mohler 0.
But give it a listen for yourself. Enjoy.
Wallis/Mohler
--Nick
Saturday, February 25, 2012
TCM, Let's talk about Sex, part 4 out of 4
Howdy folks. Here is the final and probably most controversial post on The Christian Manifesto. Hope you have your pens ready and your eyes open!
TCM, part 4 out of 4
Enjoy!
--Nick
TCM, part 4 out of 4
Enjoy!
--Nick
Friday, February 24, 2012
TCM, Let's talk about Sex, part 3 out of 4
Hey folks. Here is part three.
Excerpt: "We are raised in a world with two types of women: virgins and whores. "
Enjoy Part 3 out of 4.
--Nick
Excerpt: "We are raised in a world with two types of women: virgins and whores. "
Enjoy Part 3 out of 4.
--Nick
Making God Look Good tentative poster
The series will be from the first person perspective of a burned out PR representative who takes a job offered by St. Paul to become God's PR guy for the new generations. Covering topical issues such as the atonement, capital punishment and the sexual revolution, "Making God Look Good" is both insightful, robust and comedic.
"The Onion" meets "Thank You For Smoking."
Enjoy.
--Nick
TCM, Let's talk about Sex part 2 of 4
Hey folks. As promised, here is part two. I think it is stronger than part one, and delves into some very interesting territory.
TCM: Let's Talk About Sex part 2
--Nick
TCM: Let's Talk About Sex part 2
--Nick
A Brief Case for Annihilationism (Updated)
I believe Scripture strongly teaches conditional immortality. I recently had to disagree with my university (it is unnecessary to name them) on their doctrinal statement where they included decisive language on the eternal conscious fate of the wicked. I did this just as an exercise, and knew that my perspective more than likely disqualified me. This is not to say that I disrespect or hold this against the university.
I had only a page to write out my disagreement, and I know much more could be said on this issue. So, here it is.
1) ETERNAL FIRE
A. I do believe that hell will be eternal in effect (Matthew 25:46) but I do not believe that the punishment is ongoing and conscious. Instead, I believe the payment of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and I do believe that, if suffering was all that was required of Christ, then his death is nonsensical.
B. Matthew 25:41 references "eternal fire," and in the Greek, it is used several different times throughout Scripture. One of them is in Jude verses 3-7, where it explicitly states that Soddom and Gomorrah serve as an example of ' the vengeance of "eternal fire.'" And Soddom and Gomorrah was, according to Genesis 19:24-29, utterly destroyed. The content is known as a "sample" of what will happen. 2 Peter 2:6 explicitly says that God condemned them to '"extinction", making them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.'
C. You also have a host of metaphors to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked. "Like chaff that the wind drives away...the wicked will perish" (Ps 1:4,6). They will be dashed "in pieces like a potter's vessel." (Ps. 2:9). These are merely samples of the imagery the Bible uses to describe utter and complete destruction.
2) INHERENT IMMORTALITY
A. This also is in conjunction with Romans 6:23 in that the only people who are explicitly given eternal life are Christians (John 3:15-16, 10:28, 17:2/ Rom 2:7, I Cor 15:42f, 50, 54/ Gal 6:8/ I John 5:11). I believe that those who reject God's gift will not in fact receive immortality. Any hope we may have had of being inherently immortal was lost in Adam's sin (Gen 3:23-24). John 3:16 declares that "everyone who believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." James 1:15 states that "sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death."
I think the Biblical language of destruction describes Annihilationism, and the presupposition of inherent immortality is unfounded.
3) ALL IN ALL
A. The belief that Scripture teaches unending conscious torment is inconsistent with the host of Scriptural revelation elsewhere, especially in regards to God's total victory over sin and death. If hell, and by extension sin and sinners, exists after the cosmic redemption has taken place, then God is not victorious because sin and suffering still exist. If sin still exists after the complete reconciliation of all things (Col 1:20, Eph 1:10), then there is a contradiction.
B. Annihilationism is an excellent way, I think, to hold together the passages about judgment as well as the cosmic redemption exhibited in God's unfailing love and his desire to be "all in all" (I Cor 15:28).
4) CONCLUSION
I go where the evidence leads, and I believe Scripture quite possibly teaches that the wicked will simply be no more after the end of all things. This does not mean I am not open to new evidence or arguments. I do not believe that people who believe in ETC or Universalism lack intelligence or Biblical integrity, so I offer grace as a substitute for contention.
More to come. For additional resources see:
Glenn Peoples -- http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/2011/an-open-letter-to-my-traditionalist-friends/
Theopologetics (Podcast/ Blog)
Interview -- Edward Fudge #54-55, Larry Dixon #62-63.
Debate -- Ronnie vs Turretinfan #64-65, Chris Date vs Hiram Diaz #70-71.
Post-Debate Reflections -- #72-74.
Joseph Dear -- http://3-ringbinder.blogspot.com/2010/09/explanation-of-my-controversial-though.html
Hope all is well.
--Nick
I had only a page to write out my disagreement, and I know much more could be said on this issue. So, here it is.
1) ETERNAL FIRE
A. I do believe that hell will be eternal in effect (Matthew 25:46) but I do not believe that the punishment is ongoing and conscious. Instead, I believe the payment of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and I do believe that, if suffering was all that was required of Christ, then his death is nonsensical.
B. Matthew 25:41 references "eternal fire," and in the Greek, it is used several different times throughout Scripture. One of them is in Jude verses 3-7, where it explicitly states that Soddom and Gomorrah serve as an example of ' the vengeance of "eternal fire.'" And Soddom and Gomorrah was, according to Genesis 19:24-29, utterly destroyed. The content is known as a "sample" of what will happen. 2 Peter 2:6 explicitly says that God condemned them to '"extinction", making them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.'
C. You also have a host of metaphors to describe the ultimate fate of the wicked. "Like chaff that the wind drives away...the wicked will perish" (Ps 1:4,6). They will be dashed "in pieces like a potter's vessel." (Ps. 2:9). These are merely samples of the imagery the Bible uses to describe utter and complete destruction.
2) INHERENT IMMORTALITY
A. This also is in conjunction with Romans 6:23 in that the only people who are explicitly given eternal life are Christians (John 3:15-16, 10:28, 17:2/ Rom 2:7, I Cor 15:42f, 50, 54/ Gal 6:8/ I John 5:11). I believe that those who reject God's gift will not in fact receive immortality. Any hope we may have had of being inherently immortal was lost in Adam's sin (Gen 3:23-24). John 3:16 declares that "everyone who believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." James 1:15 states that "sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death."
I think the Biblical language of destruction describes Annihilationism, and the presupposition of inherent immortality is unfounded.
3) ALL IN ALL
A. The belief that Scripture teaches unending conscious torment is inconsistent with the host of Scriptural revelation elsewhere, especially in regards to God's total victory over sin and death. If hell, and by extension sin and sinners, exists after the cosmic redemption has taken place, then God is not victorious because sin and suffering still exist. If sin still exists after the complete reconciliation of all things (Col 1:20, Eph 1:10), then there is a contradiction.
B. Annihilationism is an excellent way, I think, to hold together the passages about judgment as well as the cosmic redemption exhibited in God's unfailing love and his desire to be "all in all" (I Cor 15:28).
4) CONCLUSION
I go where the evidence leads, and I believe Scripture quite possibly teaches that the wicked will simply be no more after the end of all things. This does not mean I am not open to new evidence or arguments. I do not believe that people who believe in ETC or Universalism lack intelligence or Biblical integrity, so I offer grace as a substitute for contention.
More to come. For additional resources see:
Glenn Peoples -- http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/2011/an-open-letter-to-my-traditionalist-friends/
Theopologetics (Podcast/ Blog)
Interview -- Edward Fudge #54-55, Larry Dixon #62-63.
Debate -- Ronnie vs Turretinfan #64-65, Chris Date vs Hiram Diaz #70-71.
Post-Debate Reflections -- #72-74.
Joseph Dear -- http://3-ringbinder.blogspot.com/2010/09/explanation-of-my-controversial-though.html
Hope all is well.
--Nick
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